Quote from: j0e_bl0ggs;154484I guess them selling bullets in the states is like selling sand to arabs.

That would be my take. I was surprised to see the reasonable prices for the pellets. I have always been interested in the Rabbit Magnum and Piledriver versions.

Paul

Yeah rabbit magnums are what I was messing around with in those machined 22 hornet cases I made (reduce the case capacity) that is where I saw the bullets when hunting for the pellets.

Hornet with the H&N bullets.





...

That was easy. Just use the right powder.
. (Ignore the 1996 record. It's artifact.)

It was out of the Contender, not the Anschutz, and the crimp was more pronounced than I wanted, but the velocity is "good". Oh yeah; 10.8 grains of No.9, and a 26" barrel. So... I think the shorter 24" barrel of the Anschutz and a lighter crimp, and I should be down around 3100 f/s. Now if the precision is just as good as the factory ammo.

Paul

You have that one moving out real good.

Just trying to get to the factory "specs". I can't stand the thought that I can't create a handload at least as good as a factory  load. ��

Paul

Shot some handloads, (and factory ammo), today. No chrono data as I was shooting for group size, not velocity, and I didn't want the Magnetospeed to mess with the precision - real or imagined.

There were 5-shots each of 4 handloads and 2 factory loads. The factory loads were:
1) PPU 45-grain, and
2) Hornady 35-grain V-Max
The handloads were all the same charge of 10.8 grains of Accurate #9. The bullets were:
Hornady 35-grain V-Max,
Nosler 35-grain Ballistic Tip,
Midway's 34-grain Dogtown (HP) bullet, and
Speer's 33-grain HP.


No adjustments were made to the bullet seating die to accommodate the different bullets. The overall length of the Hornady factory ammo is ~1.704" and so I loaded the 35-grain V-Max's to that OAL. The other bullets were seated based on their ogive as it related to the ogive of the V-Max.

The rifle was the Contender, therefore a single-shot. 12x Simmons scope. The range was a lasered 29.8 yards from the muzzle to the target.

 Here are pictures of the targets. The first one is the whole target.
 


I shot the PPUs first.


Then the Hornady factory ammo.


Then my copies of the Hornady ammo. I adjusted the elevation, but not the windage.


Then the 35-grain Nosler Ballistic Tips


Then the 34-grain Midway Dogtown HPs.


And finally the 33-grain Speer HPs.


I have lots of analysis with attendant digital targets including those with 95% confidence ellipses, but I'll just post "the numbers" first.

The "max spreads" were:
PPU - 0.70"
2.46 MoA
95% CE area - 1.21 square inches

Hornady factory - 0.76"
2.67 MoA
95% CE area - 0.99 square inches

Hornady handloads - 0.83"
2.93 MoA
95% CE area - 1.11 square inches

Nosler Ballistic Tips - 0.58" BUT...that does NOT include the flier to the left. Not called.
2.04 MoA
95% CE area - 1.33 square inches

Dogtown bullet - 1.43"
5.03 MoA
95% CE area - 1.70 square inches

Speer - 0.89"
3.14 MoA
95% CE area - 1.09 square inches

Nothing to "write home" about. However, the rest I was using was not 'perfect', and I am sure there was at least a caliber of 'wobble' from shot to shot. Also, it's the Contender, which may not be as precise at the Anschutz.

Here's an interesting stat: You'll notice that I didn't adjust the windage. The following numbers are the number of clicks needed to adjust the windage to "zero" for each bullet:

PPU - 9
Hornady factory - 1
V-Max handload - 8
Nosler - 9
Dogtown - 1
Speer - 9

Four of the 6 bullets shot consistently 2.25 MoA right and the other two shot "on" windage-wise. (The Hornady factory shot "on" of course. ) I think there is some 'information' in that set of data, I just haven't teased it out yet.

Tomorrow - maybe - I'll shoot most if not all of the same loads through the Anschutz, and work very hard on stabilizing the rest.


Paul

Paul, I don't know what the rate of twist is in the Anschutz but most likely it's 1-14 like most standard  rifles. My 223 Contender has a 1-12 inch twist. I never understood why TC used that twist but it  shoots 60 grain partition bullets very well. Your Hornet Contender may also have a 1-12 twist. .......Paul H ....

My Sako is 1 in 16 and I'll bet the Anschutz is as well.

I have not measured it recently, but based on what I read on the internet, the Anschutz .22 Hornet has a twist rate of 1:16".

Here are the digital images of the groups centered on the Point of Aim with the 95% confidence ellipse and area.
















Paul

I just resized and primed the empty cases I shot yesterday, and need to report that 4 of the 5 cases for the Hornady HANDLOADS with 10.8 grains of Accurate No.9, had 'blown' primer pockets. Before 'you' assume that the charges were too hot, let me remind you that ALL of the cartridges were loaded with that same charge. Furthermore, the 35 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips have a significantly longer bearing surface, and they had no blown primer pockets. I THINK the issue was that the cases with the Hornady 35-grain V-Max's had been fired more times than the others. Also, the Dogtown and Speer bullets were 34 and 33 grains respectively, so they shouldn't have had the same pressure as the 35-grainers. Nevertheless, I am going to drop the charge to 10.7 grains.

Paul

Had a conversation with Paul Hoskins yesterday, and he suggested trying  80-grain bullets in the Contender, (that has the 1:8 twist barrel on  it), to try and get a subsonic load that I can actually hit something  with. I thought I had some of the 80-grainers, but I don't. The heaviest  I have are 70-grainers. I also have 69 and 63 grain bullets. Maybe one  of them will work for a precise subsonic load. Honestly, I'm not  that interested in subsonic. I'm interested in a "reloadable" .22 magnum  or .22 long rifle. Something in the 1200 to 1600 f/s muzzle velocity  range. It's not difficult to get to those MVs, it's just been impossible  to get them go where I point them.

 I might buy a pound of Tin Star if I can find it, but I don't have much  hope that it will work any better than Trail Boss, and Trail Boss did  not 'work' with the wide variety of bullets I tried.


Actually, I'm not sure the 1:8 twist WILL gyroscopically stabilize the 80-grain bullet at 1050 f/s. Sierra, (the manufacturer of the 80-grainer - https://www.sierrabullets.com/product/22-caliber-80-gr-hpbt-matchking/),  says the bullet requires a twist rate no slower than 1:8. That is of course assuming that the MV is above some value. The lowest value they list, for the BC calc,  is "1750 and below". 1050 is a long way from 1750. However 1750 is not a long way from 1600, or even 1500. I'll get some and we'll see I guess.

 
 Paul


 PS - Holy Smoke! Sierra actually makes a 90-grain .22 caliber bullet! Here's what they say about MV and gyroscopic stability for that bullet:

QuoteSierra recommends a 6.5" twist barrel for the #9290 22 cal 90 gr HPBT  bullet when pushed at muzzle velocities lower than 2650 fps. In  cartridges like the Valkyrie with muzzle velocities above 2650 fps, a  1×7" twist barrel will stabilize the bullet correctly.

[/SIZE][/FONT]Paul


PPS - Sheesh! Look at this! https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1019731655

 Paul


PPPS - Good Grief! Looks like 'everyone' is making 90+ grain .22 caliber bullets these days.

Paul

Paul, I can send you a box of the 90 grain Sierra 22 caliber bullets if you want them. I most likely will never use them now that  my vision is shot. Best I remember they come 50 to a box. The 80 grain Sierra shoots reasonably well at a muzzle velocity of 3655 fps in a 9 inch twist barrel 28 inches long. I got groups around 1 inch @ 100 yards using the lead sled. These bullets WILL NOT open up good  at low velocities. Apparently the jackets are thicker than regular bullet jackets or something. That could be because the velocity has dropped off considerably at 400 yards. I find accuracy gets worse at 3740 fps and pressure raises it's ugly head. .....Paul H .....

Keep 'em for now, Paul. After looking around, I've decided to try to get the 63-grainers to work. I've been able to get a charge of 5.0 grains of No. 9 to produce a MV in the mid 1300s. Later, I'll see what that load does precision-wise. Thanks for the offer. I may still take you up on it.

Paul

Under the heading of "Some days chickens, some days feathers..." it started innocent enough.

I was going to try to get the .224 caliber, 63-grain Sierra bullets I have to shoot somewhere between just subsonic (say 1050f/s) and about 1600f/s. I thought I'd start with Hodgdon's Trail Boss powder. Not finding any good information on a starting load, and not interested in 'figuring out' how to adjust QuickLOAD's parameters for Trail Boss, I decided to start with a charge that I knew was conservative but not so anemic as to be dangerous - 2.5 grains.

The 64-grain Sierra "SMP" ("semi-point") - manufacturer's part number 1370 - is not a particularly long bullet, but it is most certainly too long for the 1:16 twist of the Anschutz, especially at 'slow' MVs, so, I was shooting the Contender with the 1:8 twist, 26" barrel. I loaded A round just to test the load for "not too hot/not too cold". I strapped on the MagnetoSpeed because I was not interested in group size, only velocity.

When I dropped the hammer, there was just a 'click'. Hmm... Having experienced this before, I carefully broke the breech open. PFFFT... Unh hunh. The cartridge had "fired", but not with enough oomph to get the bullet out the barrel. That's OK. It was 'information'. The bullet was only about 4" down the barrel. I drove it out and went back to the bench.

This time I loaded 3.0 grains of Trail Boss. That may not sound like much of an increase considering the 2.5 grain performance, but 1) I'm shooting in the dark here, and 2) Trail Boss is a VERY fast powder. I figured it was better to be safe than sorry.

It went "Pop". This time the case ejected with enthusiasm, and the bullet was about 18" down the barrel. I drove it out and went back to the bench. Next load was 3.5 grains. It went "POP". About the same 18" or so down the barrel. :frown I drove it out and went back to the bench.

The next load was 4.0 grains. It went "POP" AGAIN! @#$%^&*! The case shot over my shoulder across the room when I opened the breech. I drove the bullet out, and went back to the bench. Swearing.

Trail Boss is a VERY bulky powder, AND it doesn't perform with consistent pressure or velocity when compressed. 5 grains would have been a compressed load for the 63-grain bullet, so I decided to use another powder. After 'looking around', I decided that since I knew what No.9 was doing at 10.8 grains, I would give it a try at a reduced load of 5.0 grains. 5.0 grains was near 50% of case capacity, so I wasn't concerned.

When I dropped the hammer, "BANG". Hooray! Then !@#$^&*! MagnetoSpeed didn't 'catch' it!. Back to the bench. Load another at 5.0 grains. "BANG". AGAIN the MS didn't catch it! I started swearing like the submarine sailor I was. Back to the bench once MORE! Since the 5 grains of No.9 "worked", (got the bullet out of the barrel!), I changed the setting on the MS, and this time, it registered a velocity: 1342 f/s. I like that number. Right where I kinda wanted to be. Hmm... I wonder what MV 4.5 grains will produce? MS missed that shot! I changed the settings again! The next time - 975f/s. FINALLY! I liked that number too. At least I have the MV range I'm interested in sort of bracketed. Back to the bench to load some for 'real' testing now.

I started depriming the cases I had just fired in the powder tests. The cases I used were some new, unfired Hornady brass I had just bought at Sportsman's Warehouse. Hornady brass has small primer pockets. I decapped, reprimed, and neck-sized the first case. When I went to recap the second case after decapping, the new primer wouldn't seat. I pulled the case out of the press. @#$%^&*! The decapping pin was stuck in the flash-hole! More swearing. A LOT MORE swearing.

I was using Lee's "Universal Decapping Die". I took the die out of the press HOPING that the decapping pin was held in the decapping rod with a nut that screwed on the decapping rod instead of being pressed in. Of course it had been pressed in. @#$%^&*! The good news was that the pin hadn't been broken off; it had been pulled out. Hmm...

Getting the pin out of the flash-hole was no mean feat. I was unable to pull it out with pliers. I had to use Hornet full length resizing die, (with decapping rod/pin), to push it out. It of course dropped through the ram on the die, onto the floor. @#$%^&*!

After considerable time on my hands and knees, I found the pin. I thought I might be able to press it back in the decapping rod from whence it came. In order to do that, I had to remove the rod from the die. This is a Lee die, and of course it has that REALLY STUPID SLICK lock nut holding the rod in the die. In order to get that rod to "stay put" you have to torque that nut down to about 10,000,000,000 foot-lbs. Removing the rod requires an effing breaker bar and TWO HANDS. Once the nut came
loose, the rod dropped down into the center hole of the ram. Exactly where the pin had gone. However, the rod did not go through! @#$%^&* @#$%^&* @#$%^&* !!! There was no way to get the rod out without DISASSEMBLING THE PRESS! @#$%^&* @#$%^&* @#$%^&* @#%$^&* @#$%^&* @#$^%&* @#$%^&*!!!

I removed the ram from the press, removed the decapping rod from the ram, reinstalled the ram in the press, pressed the decapping pin back into the decapping rod, and I put the decapping rod back in the Universal Decapping Die. Now... to deal with the small flash-holes.

Let's just say that after @#$%^&*ing around for half an hour trying to get the tiny drill bit to work from the mouth of the cases, (remember that these cases haven't been, and can't be deprimed without sticking the decapping pin again), I gave up and decided to try to get the Universal Decapping Die to at least work to get these cases decapped. I GENTLY drove the pin barely in the flash-hole and retracted it. Then did that again. And again until I had enlarged the flash-hole sufficiently to allow the spent primer to be removed and the decapping rod to be extracted without leaving the decapping pin in the flash-hole. Only nine more cases to go.

After getting those cases deprimed, reprimed, and neck-sized without pulling the decapping pin out again, I charged each of them with 5.0 grains of No.9 and seated the 63-grain bullets. 10 rounds. I was going to use five rounds for getting a reasonable sample size - depending on variability - of MV values, and five to preliminarily check the precision. Given the variability in the MV for the first 5 rounds for MV, and the precision of the second 5 rounds, I should get a feel for the potential precision of this load sufficient to determine whether it warrants further experimentation. Total elapsed time... About FIVE HOURS to get two MV readings and 10 rounds of .22 Hornet loaded.

My daughter came over about that time, and I decided that it was probably a good time to stop @#$%^&*ing with this thing, and put off the MV and precision tests until tomorrow. (Today, now.) It's just gotten light enough to shoot, so I'll set up the target and lead sled, and see if today will be more "chicken" than "feathers".


Paul