What a pleasant contrast from yesterday!

Test firing went off without a hitch, and the results are promising. Here are the preliminary data and images.

First, the group with the MagnetoSpeed attached:

And the MS caught every shot. :D


Without the MS attached.



In the first image, the top hole is from the fastest bullet (1212f/s), and the bottom hole is from the slowest (1098f/s).

I'll post the analysis data and the 'combined' group after I get it all processed. The 1098 and 1212 figures are from the first two shots. Then things seemed to 'settle down'. I think these velocities are lower than yesterday's 5.0-grain charged shot of 1342f/s because, 1) That was just one shot, and more importantly, 2) that shot was out of an new, unfired case. All of these shots were from once-fired cases that had been neck-only resized. Nevertheless, mid 1100s WITH that level of precision is WAY better than I have been able to do with ANY other bullets or powders. This appears to be a nice 'reloadable' 22-RF. Furthermore, if I want to up the MV to say 1500f/s or so, I think No.9 may be the 'trick'.

I did just notice something as I previewed the post before submitting: The non-MS group seems to be just a little left of 'on'. The Point of Aim was the center of the red target. If I don't center the groups when I make the 'combined group, it may be a bit larger than the 'sum of the parts'.

I think today was a "chicken" day.

Paul

Here's the data. Digital targets have the 95% Confidence Ellipse.

First the digital target of the group shot with the MagnetoSpeed attached.


Its data:



Here's the group shot without the MS attached.


It's data.



And here the two groups are combined.


Its data.



Note the area in square inches of the 95% confidence ellipses (in green). This is of course at 30yd, not 100, or even 50. Also note that the statistical "Degrees of Freedom" is actually the number of shots minus 1.

An average MV of about 1150f/s is "hot" for subsonic, but as I said, I'm not after subsonic, rather I'm after relatively quiet and reloadable. Speaking cautiously, I think I have achieved that goal. I may attempt to up the velocity to 1500-ish. Also, I have to see how consistent this precision remains.

Definitely chickens instead of feathers.


Paul

By the way, the size of the groups in Minutes of an Angle (which removes "range" as a parameter of group size) is:
With MagnetoSpeed - 1.50 MoA
Without MagnetoSpeed - 1.4 MoA
Combined - 1.57 MoA

That's not too bad. Not great I suppose, but tolerable for relatively close-range squirrel and rabbit hunting. At 50yd - mostly (but not without exception), the longest shot on a squirrel head I would take - that's a combined group size of ~0.75", which would kill most squirrels. Better yet for a wascally wabbit. By the same token, that 63-grain bullet doing only about 1160f/s is going to have a pretty good arc, further rendering 50yd shots unlikely.


Paul

Paul, sometimes when it rains, it pours. Been thru several similar situations myself. I despise those Lee dies with Mickey Mouse friction de capping rod collet nuts. Nothing you can do seems to help short of welding them. ......Paul H

Quote from: Paul HoskinsNothing you can do seems to help short of welding them.

I hear ya! Once, on a call with Lee Precision, I mentioned my frustration with that friction nut and they said "No one else has complained about it. Did you make sure to clean it with acetone before you used it?" I said, "No, I did not clean it with acetone before I used it." They still make dies with that 'slick' rod, but they also make some with threaded rods and nut. The fact is, I put up with these dies because I like Lee Precision. They're another of a dying breed of American manufacurers that actually cares what their customers want. On two or three occasions I have broken a die part, and they have replaced them no questions asked and "right now" AND PAID POSTAGE! That just can't be beaten.

Another 'by the way' on the above two groups: I mentioned that the one shot without the MagnetoSpeed attached was a 'bit' left of center. Turns out it, the center of the group was 0.19" left of the Point of Aim. The fact that the group with the MS attached was "on" is immaterial. The fact remains that the MS effects the Point of Impact. In this case, the sample size is too small to draw any reasonable conclusions, but the two group SIZES were statistically not different. In other words, the MS changed the PoI, but it didn't change the group SIZE. Since I won't have the MS attached while hunting, that's an 'issue'. I'll continue to monitor the effects of the MS on test firing PoIs and size. I can 'live with' moving the PoI around. I cannot live with changing group size. Given barrel harmonic theory, I can't imagine that the MS doesn't effect group size.

Paul

While I'm still fiddlin' with this Contender and working up loads, I'm going to keep posting in this thread.

I've been doing quite a bit of number crunching - mostly just 'clean-up' for data records - but also some reloading as a result. I decided to 'look at' the 69-grain Sierra BTSP HP and the Speer 70-grainer. Mostly just out of curiosity since I am at least preliminarily satisfied with the 63-grain bullet's performance. I was also thinking about "high" velocity rounds for the BTSP. Again, mostly just out of curiosity. If I can predict performance, then it means I have a pretty good idea of how the powder is acting when I change bullets.

While I haven't to date been much interested in QuickLOAD because it doesn't really work very well for the Hornet, I am interested in barrel timing calculations. Also, since I measured the Contender's chamber and found that the loads I've been using, including the factory Hornady, are about 118 thousandths off the lands, I got to thinking about "distance off the lands" and reported increased precision when cartridge overall lengths put the bullet's ogive "on" the lands.

Recall that I am crimping these Hornet cartridges ever-so-slightly. Just enough to 'leave a mark' on the neck of the case. My intent with that is to improve the consistency of ignition. Consider that the neck of every case is a 'little' different in wall thickness. That means that when resizing - neck only OR full length - the INSIDE diameter of the neck varies a "little". (This is why competitive target shooters 'turn' their case necks.) For the non-benchrest crowd - like me - that means a little different "neck grab" for each bullet which in turn means "ignition" will be a little different for each cartridge. "A little different" is not "consistent", and shot-to-shot consistency is what generates precision. My intent with the crimping is to improve consistency of ignition. Now... Consider the bullet's ogive 5 thousands off the lands. (There's NO WAY to actually achieve that level of precision of bullet ogive relative to the lands, but for the sake of this discussion, let's say there is.) Probably, the firing of the primer would push the bullet that 5 thou into the lands. At that point, resistance goes WAY up. BUT... It happened "fast" in the ignition cycle because the bullet was so close to the lands. That "speed" means that the powder hasn't had a chance to start burning before there is CONSISTENT 'back pressure', thereby leading to consistent burning of the powder. Conversely, let's say the bullet was back of the lands by 120 thousandths. Now there is a "a lot" of time for the bullet to move "inconsistently" based on the variance of the neck tension.

So... While being "on" or "off" the lands certainly effects the bullet's harmonic timing, being "on" may lead to more consistent ignition/powder burn.

Assuming that evaluation/analysis is correct, I decided to move the 69 and 70 grain bullets "out" so that they are about 25 thousandths off the lands. (Given a bullet's ogive and the angle-of-attack of the throat to the lands, it's essentially impossible to be more precise in bullet position relative to the lands than at best about 0.010". And that would be doing VERY good.)

There is another issue I think I may have figured out. Recall that I said that I had loaded some of the new Hornady cases with the small flash holes. I would be willing to bet that that low value of 1096f/s was due to a "small" flash-hole. I decided to test that.

I loaded two 69-grain BTSPs ahead of 5.0 grains of No.9. I seated them for a depth (tested) that put the bullet ~0.025" off the lands. While this bullet weighs 6 grains more than the 63-grain bullet for which the 5.0 grain charge "worked", I figured there was plenty of headroom above 1150f/s AND the bullet was loaded "out" almost a 10th of an inch more than the 63-grainer. I loaded one "small" flash-hole cartridge, and one "large" flash-hole cartridge. Both fired fine. The MagnetoSpeed 'caught' both bullets.

The small flash-hole cartridge produced a MV of 1150f/s.
The large flash-hole cartridge produced a MV of 1302 f/s.

The "stuck depriming pin" issue aside, all flash-holes are getting enlarged to a uniform dimension.

With faster bullets, say over 2000f/s, inside 100yd, and especially 50yd, BC doesn't really matter much unless you're a competitive benchrest shooter. However, I wanted to see (at least on paper) what the difference in trajectory would be between the 63-grain SMP, 69-grain BTSP HP, and the 70-grain Spitzer.

I'll let you decide for yourselves:
63-grainer


69-grainer


70-grainer


To me, they are the 'same'. Nothing worth worrying about. Also, for squirrel and rabbit HEADS, use which ever one shoots straightest. If you want terminal "mushrooming", better use the 63 or 70 grainers.

I'm going to load up 10 of each and see if I can get more 'grist for the mill'.


Paul

A little success breeds confidence. I loaded 10 cases with 5.5 grains of No.9 behind the 63-grain Sierra SMPs. I fired all 10 shots with the MagnetoSpeed attached: 5 shots each at two separate targets.

The first target. Yes, there are 5 shots there. I had to expand the image considerably to 'find' the fifth hole.


That flier was not called, and there is no operator error to blame it on.


I weighed each finished cartridge. They all weighed between 128.65 grains and 129.05 grains. Only four of them didn't weigh 129.00. I was stunned. Think about that. There are four components to the cartridge: Bullet, case, powder, and primer. The only one that gets weighed before "adding" is the powder. I still find a max spread of 0.4 grains over 10 cartridges to be amazing. That's a uniformity of 0.3%!

Here are the velocities in order of being fired (f/s):
1386
1384
1377
1360
1364
1384
1382
1362
1418 - Yes, this is the "flier".
1380

Average value is 1379f/s and the standard deviation is 16.7 That 16.7 is not bad considering the 1418. Without the 1418 figure, the average is 1375 f/s and the standard deviation drops to 10.5. 10.5 is good.

I like the velocity increase from 1160 to 1380. 220f/s for 0.5 grains of powder. Maybe another 0.5 grains of powder would put me at 1600f/s. There's nothing special about 1600f/s MV, it would just be interesting to see if that 0.5 grains of powder did indeed produce the extra 220f/s increase. Because this is fast, progressive powder, I suspect that the increase would be greater than 220f/s.

Digital targets with 95% Confidence ellipses and other analysis to follow.

Oh yeah. I adjusted the scope based on the previous targets. Notice how now the "MagnetoSpeed" PoIs are RIGHT of the bullseye. More evidence that the MS effects PoI. But apparently NOT groups size in these loads.


Paul

Here are the digital targets:
With all 10 shots.


With flier excluded:


With 95% Confidence ellipse, 9 shots.


The data for the above target.


Enough for tonight.


Paul

Very impressive from a light light gun. Consistency pays off regardless of gun or load. Makes you wonder if turned necks will improve groups even more. Pretty amazing that there is so little difference in total weight of each loaded cartridge. ......Now I'm wondering what would happen if you made a weight that could be slipped down over the barrel and locked in place at any distance from the muzzle and get even better results. It would be a trial & error to find the "sweet spot." I suspect the Winchester "BOSS" is pretty much the same principal. I doubt the weight of the "bushing" over the  barrel would be of any importance. Just gears in my head turning. ......Paul H  ....

Looking good! I'm crimping all my 22 Hornet loads. I hope my die parts get here today!

Paul - I was thinking along the same lines as you regarding the barrel "tuner". However, I was thinking about using the "B.O.S.S." model because the muzzle is already threaded. I'm not sure I care to fiddle with this though. The rifle/bullet/load combination is already "minute of squirrel head" out to 50yd.

By the way, I found one case with a small flash-hole when I decapped those last 10 cases. Of course, I would have expected that case to produce a LOWER MV, not the higher one of 1414f/s.

While the velocity (pressure) response is certainly not linear, "doing the math" means that on average, I gained 44f/s per 0.1 grain of powder increase. Therefore, assuming the response IS linear, which it is NOT, I can expect the MV to go up to ~1430f/s if I increase the charge by 0.1 of a grain to 5.6. However, because of the actual non-linearity of the burn rate, I expect the MV to be closer to 1450f/s. I'll load some up today and test that 'theory'.

Since I'm burning bullets with all of this testing, I went looking for where to get some more of these 63-grain Sierra SMPs. Turns out, they make a 65-grain GameKing BTSP. I think I'll get a hundred of those and see how they shoot. That 63-grain SMP came out a LONG time ago, and I suspect that it is not long for this world. It's far too 'old-fashioned' for all the hot-shot 'snipers' of today.

News at ll.

Paul

Confidence grows with continued success until... you find the edge of the envelope. (This is dangerous in motorcycles. Ask me how I know.)

When I restarted this effort to reload good loads for the .22 Hornet, I pulled out the 'old' bullets I cast quite a while ago. They weigh on average - with gas checks - 46.5 grains. Most of you know how I have come to really dislike cast bullets. Especially in the Hornet, there are so many good jacketed bullets, it's difficult to justify the effort and frustration to get cast bullets to shoot straight. Even when they do, their MVs are so anemic that again, jacketed bullets out perform them in every category worth considering. Except one. When, from Alaska, you start looking to purchase jacketed bullets and realize that the cost of shipping will increase the cost per bullet BY 50%, cast bullets creep back into the consideration. Even in spite of a REALLY BAD performance history.

To cut to the chase scene: I loaded 5 cartridges with 4.5 grains of No.9 behind those cast bullets and produced the following target:


The sequence of the shots is noted on the target. The MagnetoSpeed did not pick up a single shot. (However, based on the sound, it appears that all were subsonic, which surprised me. But then again, maybe they weren't subsonic after all.) After the first two shots I was pretty disgusted, and seriously considered stopping there and saving the powder and primers. However, I was hoping the MS would catch at least one of the shots. No such luck. However, as you can see, the last three shots were actually pretty good for cast bullets. I'd be happy with that level of precision from a cast bullet ANY day. Still, I do not believe that can be repeated consistently. Consequently, it is unlikely that I will be shooting any more cast bullets. Digital analysis follows.


As I mentioned in the previous post, I intended to try increasing the charge for the 63-grain Sierra SMPs by 0.1 grain to 5.6 grains. Mostly just to see if the average MV would increase by the predicted 44 feet per second per tenth of a grain of powder.


It did not. The MS caught all of the shots, and the average MV for the 5 shots was 1397f/s. Despite the very nice group, the max spread on MV was 56f/s, (1375 - 1431). The five MVs were:

1) 1414
2) 1431
3) 1375
4) 1388
5) 1377

Average value was 1397f/s. (I don't like it when there are no actual values near the average value. While the sample size is small, the distribution is bimodal, not unimodal.) Standard deviation was 24.5f/s. That SD isn't terrible, but it's not great either. HOWEVER, the group is very good.

There is something else interesting about this target. The Point of Aim is the center of the bullseye on the left edge of the image. The MS straps on the muzzle of the rifle independent of rotational position. In other words, the bayonet can be anywhere in 360 degrees around the muzzle. I haven't been particularly concerned with locating the MS bayonet to the same "degree" (o'clock) location. Prior to shooting this group, I decided to adjust the scope, (10 clicks to move the PoI LEFT), to compensate for the slightly right Point of Impact of the last 10 shots. However, this time, I mounted the bayonet with it's 'belly' at about 7:30 o'clock. For the aforementioned 10 shots, its belly was at 6 o'clock. While the additional 0.1 grain of powder and attendant gain in MV MIGHT account for the SERIOUS move of the PoI to the right, I strongly suspect that the actual cause was the position of the MS bayonet "left-of-center" of the bore. I may examine this more closely in the future, and for all shooting 'for group' from here on out, the bayonet belly will be at 6 o'clock.

Digital analysis to follow.


Paul

Here are the digital data. First, the digital targets. The first is the 63-grain Sierra SMP using 5.6grains of No. 9



Next is the 46g cast bullet, using 4.5 grains of No.9.



Next is the 46g cast bullet but only the last three shots.



Here are the above three groups with 95% Confidence Ellipses and their associated data. First the 63g Sierra SMP.




Next, the 46g Cast bullet, all 5 shots.




Finally, just the last three 46g Cast bullet shots.




To my eye, that's a good group for the 63g Sierra doing on average 1397f/s. I think I'll stick with that load.

If it weren't for being a cast bullet, I could be talked into more experimentation given the last target above. However, a LONG history of breaking my sword on cast bullets prevents me from being tempted. If for some reason I have extreme difficulty getting my hands on enough jacketed .22 caliber bullets, I'll revisit this load. Don't expect it any time soon.


Paul

The 63 Sierra seems to be the winner!

There are a several bullets that weigh between 60 and 70 grains that would probably work. I think "the ticket" was the No. 9 powder. I'm going to get back to getting the 35-grain V-Max tweaked. I think the 10.8-grain load is just a tad too hot. I'm going to drop it back to 10.6 and see what the velocity and precision turn out to be. I have a sneaking suspicion that the Hornady factory load is in fact 10.8 grains of No. 9, but the small flash-hole AND possibly a "special", "weak" primer gets the 3100f/s without too much pressure. We'll see.

Paul