Need some 35 Rem FTX data

Started by RatherBHuntin, March 17, 2013, 06:08:58 AM

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RatherBHuntin

I need some data if anyone can supply it.  In the process of working up a load for my 35 Rem chambered Marlin 336, using the Hornady 200gr FTX bullet and only have data from Hodgdon, which lists a max charge of 38.3 grains of Varget.  It is also noted as being compressed, though mine isnt compressed when I got to 38.3 grains of Varget.  I see absolutely no pressure signs and the velocity is about 75-100 fps slower than I think it ought to be.  As it is a somewhat newer bullet, my other load manuals dont have it listed.  I think it is perhaps a bit conservative and was wondering what other books have Varget max load listed as.
 
So, if anyone has Lyman's 49th edition or another newer manual, could you look up the max charge for Varget in the 35 Rem with the 200gr FTX bullet.
Glenn

"Politics is supposed to be the world\'s second oldest profession.  I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."
Ronald Reagan

j0e_bl0ggs (deceased)

#1
.35 Remington (Lyman Reloading Handbook 49th Edition)

Nowt about 'FTX' in Lyman book.


Hodgdon;


Turvey Stalking
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RatherBHuntin

Thanks Joe.  I am sittin here scratching my head trying to figure out why Lyman would have left the FTX out of their book...maybe it wasn't available in time to get it tested before it had to go to print.
 
That Hodgdon data is what I was working with.  The groups I've worked up so far, in .5 gr increments from 36gr open and close at .5 gr intervals too.  The 36, 37 and 38 gr loads were ok, the 36.5, 37.5 and 38.3 are 2-3 inch groups.  I don't think I am going to be able to reach the next sweet spot, would call for a nearly 2% over max load.
Glenn

"Politics is supposed to be the world\'s second oldest profession.  I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."
Ronald Reagan

davidlt89

#3
Glenn,
what is the length of your barrel? can give you some more concrete numbers with that info! also give me the seating depth your working with. God Bless.
Romans 12:2
     
2 Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God's will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect.

recoil junky

David, I think the FTX has a cannelure and seeins as how it's a leaver gun he needs to crimp on the cannelure, I think.


Glenn, I'm not surprised you didn't get to compress your 38.3 grain load of Varget. I think Hodgon plays with new un-fired brass to test their powders/loads. No where in any of Hodgon's data have I ever seen what kind of brass they use, ever. Mebbe they don't use brass, I dunno.

Like you say, there may not be enough room to get to the next sweet spot with out a struggle.

I've been having pretty good luck using Benchmark in the 358 Winny, although when the lemmings are done panicking I'm going to switch back to IMR3031.

RJ
When you go afield, take the kids and please......................................wear your seatbelts.
Northwest Colorado.............Where the wapiti roam and deer and antelope run amuck. :undecided:  
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RatherBHuntin

Quote from: recoil junky;124761David, I think the FTX has a cannelure and seeins as how it's a leaver gun he needs to crimp on the cannelure, I think.
 
RJ

Correct.  I can seat it a little deeper as I crimped it into the very bottom of the cannelure, but not much deeper, and definitely not any longer.  Just using a light crimp too, if I used a heavier crimp it might up the pressure/velocity some.
 
Something I noticed after shooting these groups, the factory loads shoot way right.  When I sighted it in after first getting it, I had to push the front sight post out past the edge of the ramp.  Didn't think much of it.  Now, with the same bullet and case, but different powder, the groups are three to four inches left and down.
Glenn

"Politics is supposed to be the world\'s second oldest profession.  I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."
Ronald Reagan

gitano

Glenn,

I'm curious about what Marlin says the 336 can handle pressure-wise. I see that the case is SAMMI-spec'd at a seriously anemic 39,885 PSI. One must keep in mind that this cartridge is based on the 62,000 PSI .308 Win case, so the limitation MUST be the action.

The Lyman book pressure numbers are consistent with the SAAMI number. Keep in mind that a .22 RF generates about 26,000 PSI.

That said... Within the 39,885 PSI ceiling, QL says Reloader 10x and Winchester 748 are 'good' powders, giving max velocities without compressed loads. QL says the case capacity with that bullet loaded 0.435" deep for an overall cartridge length of 2.525" is 40 grains of water. That's WITH the bullet loaded in the case. The EMPTY case has a capacity, (filled to the rim of the mouth), of 51.0 grains of water. Since that's a .308 Win case, that's about 'right'.

An "article" by Chuck Hawks http://www.chuckhawks.com/35rem_358win.htm suggests that the 336 can handle pressures well in excess of 40,000 PSI. I'm not suggesting ANYTHING, "up" or "down". All that is important is that you select a pressure ceiling estimate with which YOU are comfortable. From that point forward, you can consider the whole spectrum of powders and charges that will stay below that ceiling.

By the way, the same Marlin 336 has been chambered for the venerable .30-30 Win for God-knows-how-long, and the "working pressure" for the .30-30 Win is 46,400 PSI according to the Europeans. When on considers BOLT THRUST - which is the CORRECT way to view chamber pressure - the bolt thrust on the .30-30 is greater than for the .35 Rem because the head of the .30-30 is larger than the head of the .35 Rem. I'll do the math....

The nominal head size of the .35 Rem is 0.460"; on the .30-30 it's 0.506". The amount of pounds of thrust onto the bolt face and subsequently the action itself is the pressure in pounds PER square inch, times the square inches of the cartridge head. The area of the .35 Rem is 0.166 square inches. The area of the .30-30 is 0.201 square inches. Therefore, the bolt thrust on the .30-30 is 0.201 X 46,4000 ~ 9,330 pounds. On the .35 Rem, it is 0.166 X 39,885 ~ 6,630 pounds. That's more than one third LESS than the .30-30 IN THE SAME RIFLE!

The truth is, there is almost NO rhyme or reason behind the pressure figures given for firearms and cartridges. NONE. The VAST majority of them are pulled right out of some places where the sun doesn't shine. One canNOT IGNORE rifle manufacturer's recommendations about the "strength" of their firearms, but by the same token, COMMON SENSE is a 'two-edged' sword. COMMON SENSE illustrates the silliness of the 39,885 PSI figure for the .35 Rem in comparison with even the typically anemic SAAMI figure of 42,000 for the .30-30 Win.

To repeat, I'm NOT trying to convince you to "up"  the pressure of your loads for your .35 Rem. However, there are well-established procedures for "moving up" in charge with one's load workup. If you observe those 'standard' procedures, you will be "fine", and will likely find a charge both you and your 336 like.

Paul
Be nicer than necessary.

22hornet

Marlins were also chambered in 375 Winchester. What pressure were these loaded to? 52,000 psi?
"Belief:" faith in something taught, as opposed to "knowledge:" which is awareness borne of experience.

RatherBHuntin

#8
Paul,
One of the concerns I had was the ability of the Marlin 336 to handle pressure, being a lever action. I don't have a lot of experience loading for them, the only other being a Win 94 in 30-30 and that one I developed middle of the road and called it good. I was pretty sure the Marlin is a little stouter than the Win, definitely thicker and heavier, different bolt lock up. David has run the numbers through QL and talking with him, he gave me an idea of where pressures were at, what max was and where I was headed (thanks David). He suggested several loads using the powder I had on hand and I am going to push a little higher. Again, not the slightest hint of unsafe pressure yet.
 
A recap of some PMs between David and I. He said Varget is just shy of 40,000 at 39.9 grains. I had checked the case capacity and got what you said, 51gr of water when filled to the rim, 48.8 gr of Varget filled to the rim, and 39.8 of Varget filled to the bottom of the neck. Hodgdon claims 38.3 as max. I am currently about 75 fps shy of Hornady's factory loaded FTX (2020 fps) and that is where I would like to get to. Interestingly, book numbers/powder manufacturers claims about velocity are pretty close with this one. Hodgdon claims 1963 fps with 38.3 grains of Varget and I got 1954 fps. My guess is a little tighter crimp and it would be even closer.  The min load was within 1 fps of actual velocity.  They also claim 38.3 is compressed, and if that is so, it aint much as I didn't feel the slightest bit of compression nor hear it. Of course it's Varget, not H4831 which you know for sure you are compressing, so maybe it just squeezes easier:anxious: .
 
All this said, a difference of 100 fps is irrelevant and I could stop where I am if I so chose, but I had a goal in mind and I would like to get there if possible.
Glenn

"Politics is supposed to be the world\'s second oldest profession.  I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."
Ronald Reagan

gitano

Al sounds good to me.


Honestly, if I am within 50 f/s of published MVs, including QL, I am 'satisfied'. There are just too many variables - not the least of which are the burning characteristics of powder - to expect to be "right on" what someone else got "some time".

Paul
Be nicer than necessary.

RatherBHuntin

Yea, I agree Paul.  In this case it is the actual measured velocity of Hornady LeveRevolution factory loads in my gun.  The factory load was 2020 in my gun, they claim 2225 in their 24" barrel, which still seems far fetched to me.  I know the test conditions are rigged to give the best performance data, but I don't see 4 inches giving 205 fps more.  Maybe their bullets are rocket assisted.  They are doing it with 35.3 grains of powder, whatever it is.  The most aggresive fps/inch of barrel measurements I have seen are only about 30 fps per inch of barrel lost or gained.
Glenn

"Politics is supposed to be the world\'s second oldest profession.  I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."
Ronald Reagan

gitano

With respect to MV and barrel length, you might be interested in this thread: http://thehunterslife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3050

I agree. 200 f/s from four inches is tough to imagine.

Paul
Be nicer than necessary.

RatherBHuntin

They claim LeveRevolution is the powder Hornady uses, but I just weighed a factory charge and it was 35.3 grains at 2020 fps.  Hodgdon lists the minimum load as 37 gr at 1897 fps.  The plot thickens.
 
I remember that thread. The trend seemed to indicate larger variances in factory loads.
Glenn

"Politics is supposed to be the world\'s second oldest profession.  I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."
Ronald Reagan

gitano

QuoteThe plot thickens.

That's one way to put it...

Paul
Be nicer than necessary.

RatherBHuntin

I finally got around to rechecking some loads with the 35 Rem and I think I am closer to a final load, but not positive. I have two rounds touching and one an inch away. This happened with both 38.4 and 38.8 gr of Varget. It also happened the last trip with the 38.4 gr load. I just assumed I pulled the third and was one of the reasons I wanted to reshoot these loads. But twice with the same load, and it is down and to the left, not pulled down and to the right....not sure what is going on here. I also changed scopes as the Simmons that was on it failed. I replaced it with a Nikon fixed 6 power Monarch. Regardless I think accuracy is good enough for this gun, and the velocity is where I want it. It's a 35 Rem in a Marlin 336, it will never be a 300 yard gun and the scope will likely come off it.
 
I want to increase the crimp a little, as it's very light now. I have an idea, though it may be unfounded, that a tighter crimp might increase consistency. Has anyone noticed a correlation of crimp to group size? I expect it will increase velocity a little too.
 
Loads are Hornady brass, CCI LR primers, 200gr Hornady FTX bullets over Varget. These are over book max but I have seen absolutely no pressure signs. There was a scope adjustment between strings.  The bold lines are one inch squares.
Target 1 is 38.4 gr Velocity 1998, 1964 and 1998 avg 1986

 
Target 2 is 38.8 gr Velocity 2015, 2014 and 1981 avg 2003
 

 
And on a side note, the boy was shooting a 22 at a 25 yard target, and the angle put my target behind his. He had a richochet that stuck in my target...yet didn't have enough juice to even penetrate the cardboard behind it.
 
Glenn

"Politics is supposed to be the world\'s second oldest profession.  I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first."
Ronald Reagan

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