More 303/25 testing

Started by kombi1976, February 08, 2014, 06:19:50 AM

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kombi1976

Having had issues with this rifle and round recently after having a few years break I took a similar but slightly different approach this time. My new Frankford Arsenal digital scale arrived so I decided to test it against my Lee Safety Scale which is a balance scale. After zeroing it I carefully measured 10gn of AR2209 (H4350) into the Lee scale and then put it on the digital scale (which has also been calibrated by the included weight.) The digital scale said 9.9gn. :huh:

So, it seems, there's nothing wrong with the Lee scale. Nonetheless, I used the digital one to be sure. This time I neck sized 12 of the once fired 303/25 brass and then, starting at 38.5gn, loaded 3 rounds per weight to load up to 40gn of ADI AR2209 powder behind the usual Sierra 90gn HPBT I prefer. I figured it was all safe with AR2209 having a guide max of 41gn.

It was a hot day at the range, already over 30ºC (86ºF) when I reached there but under the cool shelter at the firing line it was ok. Today the rifle, or ammo, had a new trick for me. The first 3 rounds, 38.5gn, shot ok, 1.304", and although the pattern was vertical the shots weren't consecutive - 1, 3, 2.


It was encouraging. The next 3 with a charge load of 39gn were less encouraging....the shots spreading wide in no particular order to 2.455".


The following 3 with the 39.5gn load were equally poor at 2.17":


But the final 3 with a 40gn load seemed to be getting better with shots 1 & 2 almost touching and a group 1.742".


But the really screwy thing about all of the cases was that all of them had a good deposit of soot on the case neck and shoulder:


This screams "cases not sealing due to too little pressure." The bolt was easy to lift but required a little additional tug to pop the cases, clearly because the soot was causing friction between the case neck and the chamber. So, where to go. I discussed this with some really experienced mates who've reloaded for many years and they came to 3 possible conclusions.
    • The case neck and shoulder were work hardened while being necked down from .311" to .257" and accordingly the charge was not pushing out to seal the chamber.
    • The powder charge was very mild. The maximum charge for 303 Brit of AR2209 is 48gn compressed and it's about 43,500 CUP. While 25 cal is necked down a fair way even the 41gn max is quite possibly too low to seal the case at the neck.
    • AR2209 works best when loaded almost full and needs sufficient resistance from the bullet to ensure all the powder ignites in the case before the bullet leaves. If the bullet is seated too far out this does not happen and boat tails provide even less resistance because they have less surface bearing on the inside of the case neck per length of bullet.
    That leaves me with the following solutions:
    • Anneal the neck and shoulders before reloading to soften them and ensure they seal.
    • Try hotter charges up to and over the recommended maximum.
    • Seat the bullet further in to make sure the powder ignites properly and burns efficiently rather than having blow-by down the neck and shoulders.
    Any thoughts, lads? I'm sure I can count on Paul, Don, RJ and others for wisdom in this quandary. Remember, before suggesting issues with the rifle itself, this rifle shot sub-MOA for many years with previous brass and never suffered the issues I'm currently experiencing. I have not touched any of the mechanics or bedding between then and now.[/SIZE]
    Cheers & God Bless
    22lr ~ 22 Hornet ~ 25-20 ~ 303/25 ~ 7mm-08 ~ 303 British ~ 310 Cadet ~ 9.3x62 ~ 450/400 N.E. 3"


    branxhunter

    If it is not the rifle then it could well be the brass.

    Annealing the necks was what jumped out at me while I was readingnthroughtthe latter portion of your thread.

    Have you also considered lightly roll crimping the end of the neck onto the projectile? I have read that it is a got-to for 22 hornet loads to improve neck tension and shot to shot consistency.

    Have you changed you dies since you were last reloading for this rifle? Could the sized neck diameter be slightly looser now compared to what it used to be with the tight shooting loads?

    Marcus

    22hornet

    Andy, I would look at changing your powder.
     
     I use 38.5gns of AR2208 with an 85gn Nosler BT for very good accuracy. This load has low pressure and I do get a bit of sooting on the necks and some on the shoulder too, which does no harm.
     I think Jorge uses AR2206 in his .303-25?
     
     For an 87gn projectile (this will also work for a 90gn too) ADI list a maximum of 34gns of AR2206 (which will still work for AR2206H) and a maximum of 37gns of AR2208. I find this quite conservative, some time ago Gitano worked some Quickload numbers for me and found that I could safely go higher.
     
     
     
    "Belief:" faith in something taught, as opposed to "knowledge:" which is awareness borne of experience.

    22hornet

    Here is what Paul came up with.
    "Belief:" faith in something taught, as opposed to "knowledge:" which is awareness borne of experience.

    gitano

    Raise the charge.
     
     While annealing the neck is a good idea, soot on the neck is a TIMING issue. Does the burning powder seal the neck BEFORE the bullet leaves the neck, is the issue. Regardless of how 'hard' or soft the neck is, any charge that generates a peak pressure over something like 10kPSI will blow the case (and neck) into the chamber walls. The issue is: When does it do it? If the bullet gets out of the neck completely, before the neck expands into the chamber walls, "there will be soot tonight!" (Ala "There will be blood tonight from The Princess Bride.")
     
     Recent experience is suggesting that faster powders are producing better results in medium to large cases. RL-15 is turning out to be a very good powder for Ackley'd x57 cases and up to .338 WM. This of course flies in the face of "conventional wisdom", nonetheless results can't be denied - except by gunwriters (ptooey) and other fools.
     
     Anyway, to repeat; up the charge. Get the max pressure up to at least 45kPSI and get it there "faster".
     
     By the way... BE CAREFUL in that heat. Initial powder temperature REALLY MATTERS!
     
     Paul
    Be nicer than necessary.

    kombi1976

    Ah, right, so I should be seating deeper & using a faster powder like AR2208. Is it worth annealing the neck or should I try the faster powder first? Incidentally my 303/25 is an SMLE.
    Cheers & God Bless
    22lr ~ 22 Hornet ~ 25-20 ~ 303/25 ~ 7mm-08 ~ 303 British ~ 310 Cadet ~ 9.3x62 ~ 450/400 N.E. 3"


    gitano

    There's nothing 'wrong' with annealing the necks. I think that is a good idea in general. Whether you anneal and change powders and seat deeper all at once depends on whether you want to simply solve the problem or you want to determine exactly what the problem is. If you want to determine what the problem is, then it is unwise to change more than one variable at a time. If you change them all all at once, it is highly likely that the "problem" of sooty necks will go away. The cause will be "One of the things I changed".
     
     If I remember correctly, "we" discussed the issue of annealing when you were having trouble with necking these cases down. I don't recall exactly, but if my memory isn't too far off, you didn't want to anneal unless you absolutely had to. With necked down cases, annealing is 'reality' sooner or later. Usually, the sooner the better.
     
     I don't understand the significance of your comment "Incidentally my 303/25 is an SMLE". If I had a 20th century CF rifle that I was afraid to put ammo through that generated 45,000 PSI of max pressure, I'd get rid if it.
     
     Paul
    Be nicer than necessary.

    kombi1976

    Ummm, right. So should I change powder or anneal first? I was reluctant to anneal when resizing but did so anyway. The outcome was the same as not annealing. The necks were crushed. If annealing is the solution here I'm ready to have another crack at it despite previous failures.
    BTW, I said it was an SMLE simply because some people run hot loads in their 303/25s because they're Mauser 98s or P14s.
    Cheers & God Bless
    22lr ~ 22 Hornet ~ 25-20 ~ 303/25 ~ 7mm-08 ~ 303 British ~ 310 Cadet ~ 9.3x62 ~ 450/400 N.E. 3"


    davidlt89

    QuoteSo should I change powder or anneal first?
    keep upping the charge as Paul said with all the other variables staying the same and see what happens. Go until you reach the "pressure ceiling". Maybe things will get tighter and your "soot problem" will go away. If not, then you can tackle the other variables "ONE AT A TIME". God bless.
    Romans 12:2
         
    2 Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will learn to know God's will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect.

    Jorge in Oz

    Quote from: 22hornet;130862Andy, I would look at changing your powder.
     
     I use 38.5gns of AR2208 with an 85gn Nosler BT for very good accuracy. This load has low pressure and I do get a bit of sooting on the necks and some on the shoulder too, which does no harm.
     I think Jorge uses AR2206 in his .303-25?
     
     For an 87gn projectile (this will also work for a 90gn too) ADI list a maximum of 34gns of AR2206 (which will still work for AR2206H) and a maximum of 37gns of AR2208. I find this quite conservative, some time ago Gitano worked some Quickload numbers for me and found that I could safely go higher.
     
     
     

    Andy I use 100 grain projectiles with 29.5 grains of AR2206H. I use to use AR2206 with 87 grain pills but it is no longer available. I use to get 1 inch groups but that is with a K98 Mauser.

    I use the ADI manual for my loads, usually a medium load between the starting and the max.

    As Paul has said in the past, I reckon that you can increase your loads a  bit more.

    I've shot under loaded PMC 8x57 Mauser ammo before and have the same sooting as you. I load my 270 win and 8x57 near max and have never had that kind of sooting.

    AR2209 is far too slow a powder for 303-25 and 303 Brit. The velocities are not good with this powder. AR2206H and AR2208 are better powders. AR2209 would be ok for larger pills for the 303 Brit.
    "The Germans brought the best hunting rifle to the war. The Americans brought the best target rifle. The British brought the best battle rifle!"
     
    "The early church was married to poverty, prisons and persecutions. Today, the church is married to prosperity, personality, and popularity." ― Leonard Ravenhill

    kombi1976

    AR2209 is actually a superb powder for 303 Brit.......so long as you're attempting to duplicate the MkVII load for Service Rifle discipline or hunting with the open sights using 174gn or 180gn pills. I'd imagine it's a good powder for 215gn pills, too. Strangely, the only load listed is for AR2206 powder, a relatively fast powder which is no longer manufactured.
    But my mates, one of whom is the current Australian Service Rifle rapid fire champion and has been the state and national champion over the past 20 years at various times, recommend 2209. That's good enough for me, especially since the untested loads I threw together for last month's service rifle shoot were loaded with 47gn of AR2209 and shot quite well. No soot, no fouling, respectable accuracy. Can't fault that. My final load will definitely use AR2209.
    That said, my 8x57JS loads (which admittedly were for 150gn bullets) used 2206H for a relatively consistent 2890fps. It wasn't a compressed load but admittedly it was fairly full. Anyhow, I'll push the load up a little hotter, seat the bullets a tad deeper (as they were in the past) and see what happens. Then I'll have a crack with 2208. That's the wretch about this. Before it shot MOA when I was on my game. Now, with this brass, it's all over the shop.
    Cheers & God Bless
    22lr ~ 22 Hornet ~ 25-20 ~ 303/25 ~ 7mm-08 ~ 303 British ~ 310 Cadet ~ 9.3x62 ~ 450/400 N.E. 3"


    gitano

    Arthur C. Clarke wrote: "Any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic." Fisheries sonar is a "technology sufficiently advanced" to appear to be "magic" to most laymen. As head of the fisheries sonar program for the State of Alaska, I often got asked/told at public meetings that "we" should put another sonar system up or down stream of the existing one, (the one that was producing the numbers the 'people' didn't like), as a "test" or "ground-truth" of the existing system. My response was always the same: "Then which "number" would we use as the "truth"?"
     
     Here's my point: You're soliciting advice from several sources. It is practically unimaginable that you will get identical recommendations from all of the different sources. You are a man with "two watches" that never knows what time it is. (The sonar analogy.) Clearly you KNOW and respect the fellows that you are consulting there where you live. I seriously doubt that you will be lead "wrong" by ANY of the sources whose recommendations you choose to follow. However, YOU will be MUCH "happier" if you pick just ONE of them - and it certainly doesn't matter to me who that is - and "stick to it" with them.
     
     You have two "problems": 1) "Sooty necks" - which, by the way, is NOT a "problem", it's an indication of "lower than necessary" chamber pressures, and 2) by your personal standards, relatively poor precision.
     
     This ain't rocket science. There are usually 27 ways to skin the reloading cat. I have found that when I pick one "advisor" on a problem I'm having, and 'don't look back' I am both more quickly successful AND I and everyone around me are 'happier'.
     
     Paul
    Be nicer than necessary.

    Jorge in Oz

    Andy, AR2209 is my favourite powder. I load my 270 win, 303-270 and 8x57 with it and have had great success, including 1 inch groups at 200 meters with my old Tikka LSA 65 in 270 Win. I use 40 grains of AR2209 with 130 grain pills on my 303-270 which is a No.4 action and that gets me good accuracy also.  

    Dude no need to pull the ruler out for a measuring contest. I am talking from my own personal experience in relation purely to hunting loads. Now AR2206 was great for my 303-25 and use to get very tight groups with 87 grain pills. When they announced that they would stop producing it annoyed me as I had worked for a while to get to my desired load. That is why I started experimenting with AR2206H. I know the ADI manual does not list AR2206H for 303-25 so I created my own loads. But I must say I did use 38 grains of AR2209 for 87 grain pills with more than adequate success. But because I switched to 100 grainers I found that AR2206H gave me great results.

    In relation to my comment about AR2209 on 303-25 and 303 Brit I correct myself to say that it is not far too slow, I just have not gotten the desired results with the smaller pills that's all. I do find AR2209 is great with the larger pills in a 303 Brit and I get good accuracy with it. This is just from my experimentation with 303 Brit, 303-25 and 303-270. I am far from being an expert at reloading, I was just sharing my experience. As Paul said if your mate is giving you good advice then stick to that and see what results you achieve.

    It can be very frustrating wasting reloading materials while trying to fine tune your ammo but once you start getting results then you are home and hosed.

    I wish you well with your experimentation, its half the fun too (for me).

    Cheers

    Jorge
    "The Germans brought the best hunting rifle to the war. The Americans brought the best target rifle. The British brought the best battle rifle!"
     
    "The early church was married to poverty, prisons and persecutions. Today, the church is married to prosperity, personality, and popularity." ― Leonard Ravenhill

    kombi1976

    I was back to the range this morning so I slung together some rounds of 303/25 to test while I was there. I loaded 3 each of 40.5gn and 41gn using AR2209 powder as 41gn is the listed maximum and I figured I'd see how that went.

    Then after comments about faster powders I hedged my bets and made up 3 rounds each of 35.5gn and 36gn using AR2208 powder. Same seating depths, same Sierra GameKing 90gn HPBT projectile, same Win large rifle primer.

    Sadly the AR2209 groups got no smaller and the fouling it caused last time did not decrease. But I got a pleasant surprise with the 36gn charge of 2208 powder.



    Admittedly, it's not miniscule but 1.14" centre-to-centre is more than respectable and indicative of it's past accuracies. Next meet I go to I'll load up some more with the 36gn load as well as some with a 36.3gn and 36.6gn load to see if that group will get any smaller.
    Which ever group is smallest will be zeroed +2" @100m. Finally some success! :D
    Cheers & God Bless
    22lr ~ 22 Hornet ~ 25-20 ~ 303/25 ~ 7mm-08 ~ 303 British ~ 310 Cadet ~ 9.3x62 ~ 450/400 N.E. 3"


    recoil junky

    What's the max on the 2208 Andy? Looks like another tenth or two and it'll be fair dinkum!

    Kinda funny (or not) but the way that rifle shoots. The group is of the same "shape", but getting smaller. I like it.

    RJ
    When you go afield, take the kids and please......................................wear your seatbelts.
    Northwest Colorado.............Where the wapiti roam and deer and antelope run amuck. :undecided:  
    Proud father of a soldier medic in The 82nd Airborne 325th AIR White Falcons :army:

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