I have put a new thread in the "References" sub-site: http://thehunterslife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19012

It contains just the data. I created it so that folks that just wanted the MV data for a bunch of ammo in a bunch of rifles could find it without having to wade through all the ancillary information here. I will continue to post the data both here and there, and continue with the discussions here.

Paul

I am planning to do some rimfire "work" here as soon as the amount of daylight gets back to something 'useful'. My plan is to take 16 of the 18 .22 rifles I own and fire at least 5 rounds from each of them using 9 of the 12 types of .22 RF ammo I have in hand. (Minimum of 720 rounds.) For those types of ammo that I have a lot of, I may shoot more than 5 rounds. In preparing for that effort, I found some old data I had for 6 rifles with four types of ammo. I have more "old" data, but I haven't found all of that yet. Until I get that 'work' done, here's a graph of the old data I found.

Paul

The rifles I will be using are:

• Polish Trainer #1
• Polish Trainer #2

• Romanian Trainer #1
• Romanian Trainer #2

• SMLE Trainer #1
• SMLE Trainer #2

• Ruger 10/22 with Volquartsen 1:9 twist barrel

• Ruger 10/22 with standard 1:16 twist barrel



• BSA Model 12 Tilting Block

• Enfield Trainer (tilting block like Martini)

• Anschutz Model 54 Match

• Savage Model 1903

• Stevens Model 416 USGI Match

• "Teutonic" Single Shot Breechloader

• Krico

• Insert for Mauser K-98

[/list]
Some reference pictures. Some are of my rifles, some are from online images. All of the ammo pictures are off the internet.

The ammo I will be using:

• Aguila Sniper Sub Sonic

• Aguila Colibri

• Aguila Interceptor

• CCI "Standard Velocity"

• CCI "Mini-Mag 22 LR-HP"

• CCI "CB Short"

• Remington "Golden Bullet"

• Winchester "22 Long Rifle"

• Federal "Maximum Velocity HP #712" (Picture coming soon.)

Paul

Should be fun to read.

I don't know if I will be able to get it all done in one day. In fact, I'm not sure I want to try to get it done in one day. Right now, not only are the days short, but it's kinda cold too. It would be a long, cold day to get all 720 rounds chrono'd and recorded.

Paul

Since this thread only had four posts in it, I'll post the range reports here to consolidate all of the data in one place.

Talk about 'making a rod for one's own back', OY!

I had great plans for shooting several rifles today because I was shooting in my backyard. You know what they say about 'best laid plans'. I'll spare you the gory details, but in the end, I only shot the Krico, and while I did shoot 8 kinds of ammo, I was only able to get MVs on 6 of them. Two of them; CCI CB Short, and Aguila Colibri, didn't register on the MagnetoSpeed (MS). (Some hassles with the MS are part of the plans that went awry as well as a magazine malfunction that is actually pretty significant. As a result, I had to load each bullet one at a time.) At any rate, here is the first installment on this endeavor which I hope gets easier.

The Krico didn't have a 'scope mounted on it, and the only "good" 'scope I have not mounted is has a 50mm objective and the rings I have that fit the Krico's dove-tailed receiver aren't high enough for the 50mm objective. So, I had to mount a Bushnell 3x9x40. It was fine for this exercise. I decided not to go out to the 37-yd max I can get in my yard, and just set the target at 25 yd; one of the standard ranges for .22 RF.

I used the Remington "Golden Bullet" to get the 'scope sighted in. Sighting in and then shooting 5 shots for MV and group. Therefore I have 9 MVs for that ammo, but the last 6 shots for group. I have set up an Excel spreadsheet to present the data in concise and organized form. Here's a screen-shot of the part of the Krico spreadsheet for the Remington "Golden Bullet" ammo.


If the above image is too large to fit your screen, hold the "Ctrl" (control) key down WHILE you tap the "-" (minus) key. This will shrink the image on your screen. If the picture is too small, hold the Ctrl key down and tap the "+" key. That will enlarge the image on  your screen. When you finish looking at this thread, you can go back to whatever level of "magnification" you like by using the appropriate keys to reduce or enlarge the image on your screen.

It's difficult to see the two lower shots that are "in the black", but you can see where they are in the graphic representation of the group. The spreadsheet is essentially a template, so I will explain a couple of the cells for this bullet, and the explanation applies for all the rest. (Im' not going to explain the obvious cells, but sometimes what's obvious to me isn't to someone else, so if you have a question, ASK!)

Cells B10 through B18 are the MVs in f/s for each of the rounds fired. As I said, the first three were for sighting in, the next 6 for group. The average MV was 1241.8 f/s. At the moment, I don't know what the advertised MV is, but 1242 ain't shabby.

Cells C4-C9, and D4-D9 are the pixel-level x and y (windage and elevation) coordinates for each bullet hole.

Cells H4 and I4 are the x and y coordinates of the point of aim (POA).
I needed to calculate the pixels per inch for each image, and that's what's going on in cells H5-H8 and cells I5 & I6. Cell I8 is the dimension of a pixel in inches. In this case one pixel is equal to 1.266 thousandths of an inch. So you can see how precise I can be in getting group sizes.

Cells C13-C18 and D13-D18 are the x and y coordinates of each shot relative to the POA in INCHES. (I needed the above numbers to covert from pixel units of measure to inches.) The corresponding cells in colums E and F are the values with the average removed. The 'centers' the group on the 0,0 x,y coordinate. (This simplifies some of the math associated with the statistics.)

Row 19 has the average values for each column of data above it. (Notice that the average values for windage and elevation are "0.00" in columns E & F. That's because the average has been removed, meaning the average is now 0.00.)

Row 20 is the standard deviation of the MV and the windage and elevation. This value allows me to predict the 95% Confidence intervals (CI) around windage and elevation which in turn allows me to calculate the 95% Confidence ellipse (CE) and its area. The 95% CE is the ellipse within which one can be confident that 95 out of the next 100 shots will land. The area of the CE is a measure of the precision of the ammo/rifle/shooter 'system'.

I'll skip over rows 21 and 22, but if you want to know any details about them, just ask.

The green highlighted cell in row 23 is the area of the CE in square inches. You can also see this value in the text box in the graphic representation of the group.

For those that like to see "max spreads", row 24 has the values for the MV, windage, and elevation.

Row 25 (Euclidean Max Spread) is the "classical" maximum spread that gunwriters (ptooey) have been presenting for a hundred years.

On the far right is a picture of the actual group, and to its left is the graphic representation of the group for clarity. In the actual group, the small squares are 0.2" and the large squares are 1". In the graphic representation, the squares are 1".

SO...

What most people are interested in is the average MV and the group size. The average MV is 1242 f/s and based on this sample of 9 shots, I could expect the muzzle velocities of at least 95 of the next 100 shots to be between 1190 f/s and 1293 f/s. Seems like a big spread (103 f/s) when the observed spread is only 71 f/s. That's because the sample size is small. With a small sample size, we can't be more CONFIDENT than this +/- 51.5 f/s.

The "max spread" of the group is 0.93". But the 95% CONFIDENCE interval for windage is +/- 0.57", and +/- 0.80" (3.20" up and down). The area of a circle (ellipse) that circumscribes our CONFIDENCE of where the next 95 out of 100 bullets will hit is 1.43 square inches. (You can also see that value in the graph.) So gunwriters (ptooey) would express the "accuracy" of this bullet in this rifle (with me shooting it) as 0.93". Since I don't like to fool MYSELF, I can express with confidence that 95% of the next 100 shots will most likely fall within an ellipse that has an area of 1.43 square inches. An ellipse whose windage axis is 1.14" inches wide by 1.6 inches high. Now recall that this is at TWENTYFIVE YARDS. So at 50 yards the axes would be twice as long, but the AREA would be FOUR TIMES larger.

OK - A high level of information 'density'. I'll give you a break and just post the images from the rest of the ammo I shot today.

Vertical max spread of only 0.18". That's good. 0.76 MoA vertically; 3.44 MoA horizontally.


Two "key-holes" out of 5 shots - #s 4&5.


Great MV at 1453 f/s. Good windage at only 0.30" (1.2 MoA), but elevation jumps to 1.03" (4.12 MoA).


Nothing particularly good in this group.


I LIKE this one!. Were it not for the one flier - not operator error - this would be a very good group, but it would still be 1.6 MoA.

The CCI-CB-Short with no MV data.

More when there is more.

Paul

Here's a graph of the velocities for easier comparison.


And here it is with 95% confidence bars. If the Confidence intervals overlap, there is no statistical difference between the average values.
This should "make sense" because the probability of a specific MV being from a specific bullet is inside the 95% CI for all of those four. Since that could occur within the overlap, one cannot expect to tell the which cartridge produced the shot.

So for example, the 95% CI of the Mini Mag overlaps the average ("expected value") for all except the SSS and Interceptor. Therefore, if you didn't know what bullet I "just shot", but you had the MV, you couldn't tell which one it was if the choice was between all four of them. However, if the choice was between the Winchester and the Federal, you COULD "bet" on which it was based on the MV and "expect" to be right more often than not.


Paul

PS - Here's a picture of the whole target:


Looking at this picture suggests that I could have posted "group" statistics for the CB. I didn't, because I don't have MV data. I suppose I'll calculate the stats on the group and post them. Tomorrow.

Or today:

Paul

Looking again at the graph of MVs with their confidence interval, the bullets worth having a second look at are those with the smallest standard deviations - The Winchester 36-grain HP, and the Aguila Interceptor. The Winchester had the most promising group size and the Interceptor had the highest average velocity by 200 to 300 f/s for the Remington and Federal respectively. Percentage-wise, that's an improvement of (1453-1242)/1242=9% over the Remington, and (1453-1158)/1158=25% over the Federal. I might as well do the Mini Mag: (1453-1188)/1188=22%. You can decide for yourselves if those are 'significant' improvements. For me, the added velocity of the Interceptor PLUS the windage standard deviation of 0.13 inches makes me want to see if I can't get the elevation standard deviation down.

It will be important to shoot at 50 yd. I'm not too big on shooting .22 RFs at 100 yd at game because when I'm using a .22 RF to hunt with, I'm not sitting at a bench. In other words, I am usually shooting off-hand. In order for me to feel comfortable taking a 100+ yd shot at something like a bunny's head, I'd have to be certain that the rifle/ammo system was capable of at least 1 MoA precision. For 50 yd and shorter shots, my personal standard can expand to 2 MoA - 1" at 50
yd.

Its a beautiful day. I may get some more .22 RF shooting in.

Paul

The interesting part of that to me is those 36 grain Winchester's they were the only ones available here for much of last spring and summer. Seemed to be able to hit more that usual perhaps this is why.

Perhaps it is. At what range do you usually shoot the gophers?

Paul

PS - I added images of the ammo boxes except the Federal Hi Power #712. They'll get here. Sooner or later.

Paul

I have better luck with the Winchesters as well. All my Remingtons like them the best. The Mossy could care less.

RJ

The next rifle used was the Ruger 10/22 with the 1:9 twist Volquartsen barrel so I could shoot Aguila Sniper SubSonic ammo from it.

Cutting to the chase scene:
The first ammo was the Remington Golden Bullet:


Next, the CCI, Mini Mag:


Next, the Aguila Interceptor:


Next, the Federal Hi Power #712:


Next the Winchester 36-grain:


Finally, sort of, the Aguila SSS. I shot two groups of 5 each. The MagnetoSpeed only caught 1 velocity. Here's the first group:


Here's the second:


Here is a graph of the combined groups.


I tried the Aquila CBs and the CCI CB Shorts. No joy in shooting the Aguilas. Shot the CCIs, but no MVs. Here is the CB's group:


I'm bushed now, but I also shot my 10/22 with the "normal" 1:16 twist barrel with these same bullets. I'll post that data tomorrow and discuss all of them. Some interesting things happened.

Paul

You may have noticed that some of the cells are now highlighted: The standard deviation of the windage and elevation, and the area of the 95% CE. Those cells are automatically formatted when the contents of the cell meet certain criteria; when the SD of the windage or elevation is less than one caliber, and when the area of the 95% CE is less than 0.44 square inches.

I wanted to know when the SD in windage or elevation was equal to or less than 1 MoA - my personal standard of precision. (Not the 'law' but rather a 'goal'.) That means that THEORETICALLY, when stretched out to 100 yd, the windage or elevation of the group would be equal to or less than ~1 inch because the caliber (0.223") is approximately 1/4 of an inch and these groups were shot at 25 yd. Since 100 divided by 25 is 4, and 4 times 1/4 = 1, I set the 'notice' to show when the SD was less than a caliber.

In the case of the area of the 95% CE I had to make some arbitrary decisions. Your choices might differ. Since a common game animal that I would use a .22 RF rifle on is a wascally wabbit, and since I prefer to head-shoot them, I thought the criteria for the area of the 95% CE should be about equal to the cross-sectional area of a rabbit's head. I figured that for a circle of about 3 inches in diameter. Since 100 yd is essentially the max range I would use a .22 RF on a rabbit, I needed to figure out how small that circle needed to be at 25 yd; the distance at which I was shooting the paper targets.

One might think that since we multiplied the group size (or SD) by 4 to get the MoA figure, that is all we need to do to the area value of the 95% CE at 25 yd. Au contriare! The SD is a "linear" value (one dimensional); the 95% CE area is a two dimensional value - it has width and breadth, and it is expressed as SQUARE inches. Therefore, the threshold for 'notice' of "minute of a rabbit's head" has to be scaled accordingly. The Reader's Digest version is that the figure at 25 yd needs to be about 0.44 square inches. If you don't want to read how the math was done to get that figure, skip the next paragraph.

Since I somewhat arbitrarily (somewhat empirically as well) chose a 3" diameter circle as the "minute of rabbit's head" value, the radius of that circle is 1.5". The formula for the area of a circle is "pi times the radius squared" or pi*r^2. Since our radius is 1.5 inches, the area of a circle 3" in diameter equals:
pi * r^2
3.14 * 1.5^2
3.14 * 2.25
7.07 square inches. In other words; a circle with a diameter of 3 inches has an area of ~7.07 square inches. Here comes the 'tricky' part. Since the ratio of 25 to 100 is four AND since we have to SQUARE two dimensional parameters to get AREA, we have to divide our 100 yd area (7.07 in^2) by 4 SQUARED, or 16. 7.07 divided by 16 equals 0.44 SQUARE inches. Therefore, any 95% CE that has an area of 0.44 square inches or less at 25 yd, will THEORETICALLY have an area of 7.07 square inches or less at 100 yd, and we can EXPECT our rifle/ammo system to hit within that area 95 times out of a hundred.

I just got a call and have to conduct some business. I'll get back to this later.

Paul

Quote from: gitano;144122Perhaps it is. At what range do you usually shoot the gophers?

Paul

PS - I added images of the ammo boxes except the Federal Hi Power #712. They'll get here. Sooner or later.

Paul

Iron sights 50 yards and under.

Quote from: recoil junky;144124I have better luck with the Winchesters as well. All my Remingtons like them the best. The Mossy could care less.

RJ

Have you ever shot any yellow jackets? The open up better than anything I have ever tried but might take a couple of boxes to hit one animal.

Quote from: gitano;144130You may have noticed that some of the cells are now highlighted: The standard deviation of the windage and elevation, and the area of the 95% CE. Those cells are automatically formatted when the contents of the cell meet certain criteria; when the SD of the windage or elevation is less than one caliber, and when the area of the 95% CE is less than 0.44 square inches.

I wanted to know when the SD in windage or elevation was equal to or less than 1 MoA - my personal standard of precision. (Not the 'law' but rather a 'goal'.) That means that THEORETICALLY, when stretched out to 100 yd, the windage or elevation of the group would be equal to or less than ~1 inch because the caliber (0.223") is approximately 1/4 of an inch and these groups were shot at 25 yd. Since 100 divided by 25 is 4, and 4 times 1/4 = 1, I set the 'notice' to show when the SD was less than a caliber.

In the case of the area of the 95% CE I had to make some arbitrary decisions. Your choices might differ. Since a common game animal that I would use a .22 RF rifle on is a wascally wabbit, and since I prefer to head-shoot them, I thought the criteria for the area of the 95% CE should be about equal to the cross-sectional area of a rabbit's head. I figured that for a circle of about 3 inches in diameter. Since 100 yd is essentially the max range I would use a .22 RF on a rabbit, I needed to figure out how small that circle needed to be at 25 yd; the distance at which I was shooting the paper targets.

One might think that since we multiplied the group size (or SD) by 4 to get the MoA figure, that is all we need to do to the area value of the 95% CE at 25 yd. Au contriare! The SD is a "linear" value (one dimensional); the 95% CE area is a two dimensional value - it has width and breadth, and it is expressed as SQUARE inches. Therefore, the threshold for 'notice' of "minute of a rabbit's head" has to be scaled accordingly. The Reader's Digest version is that the figure at 25 yd needs to be about 0.44 square inches. If you don't want to read how the math was done to get that figure, skip the next paragraph.

Since I somewhat arbitrarily (somewhat empirically as well) chose a 3" diameter circle as the "minute of rabbit's head" value, the radius of that circle is 1.5". The formula for the area of a circle is "pi times the radius squared" or pi*r^2. Since our radius is 1.5 inches, the area of a circle 3" in diameter equals:
pi * r^2
3.14 * 1.5^2
3.14 * 2.25
7.07 square inches. In other words; a circle with a diameter of 3 inches has an area of ~7.07 square inches. Here comes the 'tricky' part. Since the ratio of 25 to 100 is four AND since we have to SQUARE two dimensional parameters to get AREA, we have to divide our 100 yd area (7.07 in^2) by 4 SQUARED, or 16. 7.07 divided by 16 equals 0.44 SQUARE inches. Therefore, any 95% CE that has an area of 0.44 square inches or less at 25 yd, will THEORETICALLY have an area of 7.07 square inches or less at 100 yd, and we can EXPECT our rifle/ammo system to hit within that area 95 times out of a hundred.

I just got a call and have to conduct some business. I'll get back to this later.

Paul

I am going to think about this for awhile at first look I am not sure I agree with your methodology on this. But I am reshingling a roof today so I will give it some thought while I am up there. My first reaction is ifva gun groups one inch at a hundred yards and you have a three inch circle to hit you should basically hit it every time. Secondly I first thought about your area theory is when you have figured out the square inches why you would divide it by four twice if you are in the realm of square inches and wanted to take that figure down to a quarter of the distance I don't understand why it would be divide twice. I need to think my reasoning over.lol thanks for the mental challenge for the day. Lol.