I am going to document the "ballistic journey" to the Delta barley fields to hunt bison this coming fall. Mostly 'for the record', but also because I haven't spent a lot of time developing the loads for the potential firearms I am considering using on this hunt. This thread will provide a single location which, in the future I, and anyone else, can find the load development for those various rifles.

As I stated here: http://www.thehunterslife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20278, the 1879 Martini-Enfield chambered in .51x.348 Win/.50-70/.50 Alaskan is at the top of the list. I made that rifle specifically for this hunt, and it is the one I intend to take. However, as always, a DEPENDABLE firearm, that shoots every time I pull the trigger, AND hits where I aim it, ALWAYS gets the nod when it comes to Hunting. There would be no question whatsoever about the use of the Martini-Enfield IF it weren't for some 'facts of life' that come with this hunt. Primary among those 'facts' is that 300-yard shots are fairly normal.

Under most hunting circumstances, I refuse to shoot at big game animals beyond 300 yards. (Recently, unfortunately, I have been forced to take longer shots. I missed them all.) However, a bison is a big target, even at 300 yards, so I am willing to shoot at that range, and even farther. Here's where that 'fact' impacts the choice of rifle. To start that explanation, let me list the rifles being considered.

1) The aforementioned .50-70, AKA .50 Alaskan.
2) A Uberti/Cimmaron Sharps "Quigley" chambered in .50-90.
3) A Ruger/Farquharson chambered in .416x.348 Win.
4) A Sauer model 90 chambered in .338 Win Mag.

Let me get the .338 Win Mag dealt with first, as it's the easiest. This rifle IS going to Delta. Period. It's a "buffalo killer" at any range I am willing to shoot. It hits right where I aim it, and its trajectory out to any range I am willing to shoot is very flat. However, for the first 30-day period I get to hunt, I will not be taking it into the field with me unless one of the "gunbearers" has it with them. I'll be using one of the single-shots listed above. If I am unsuccessful in that first hunt, and especially if I am unsuccessful because of the limitations of one of those single-shot rifles, then the .338 WILL be used.

Each of the single shot rifles listed above has a 'redeeming value' that puts it on the list.

The .50-70 because I made it just for this hunt. It has a 26" barrel.

The .50-90 because 1) it is chambered for a cartridge that has more case capacity than the .50-70, AND it has a 34" barrel which allows a higher MV at a lower max pressure.

The .416x.348 Win because the bullets made for it have good ballistic coefficients, which means flatter trajectory which means longer range capabilities; it has a 28" barrel which again means higher MV at lower max pressure; AND the higher MV and good BCs mean greater max range capability.

Each rifle has a "limitation" too.
Martini-Enfield - Max pressure limit of 30,000 PSI coupled with "smallest" case and shortest barrel.
Quigley - Max pressure limit of 29,000 PSI and this particular rifle is "cold blooded", meaning that the big "90" case doesn't like to shoot in cold weather. Fairbanks, November to March is cold.
Ruger .416 - Wasn't "made for" this hunt, and isn't a .51 caliber. (ON PAPER, it is ballistically superior to the other two single shot rifles in consideration.)

Under 'normal' circumstances, (unlike this hunt which is likely to be a "once-in-a-lifetime" (OIAL) event), I like to limit muzzle energy to about 3400 ft-lbs. In the rifle/cartridge combinations I shoot, that ME kills big game animals "dead right there", AND is "pleasant" to shoot. (In other words, it doesn't kill AT BOTH ENDS!) However, the OIAL nature of this hunt means I am willing to up that max ME value to something in the low 4000s - maybe even as high as 4,400 ft-lbs if I feel it is necessary. Excepting the Sauer, all of the rifles weigh over 11 pounds, unloaded. That weight mitigates recoil significantly.

As far as trajectory goes, I HATE aiming "off hair". I will do it, but I really don't like it. What that translates to for a bull bison at 300 yards is a drop of no more than about 30 inches. With that drop, I can put the front post on the top of the hump and at 300, expect the bullet to hit the bull in the heart.

Finally, I would like to be able to deliver a minimum of 2000 ft-lb of energy to the bison regardless of what range I shoot. That's another reason for using bullets with higher BCs at higher MVs.

Light weight bullets can generate higher muzzle velocities, but  because light-for-caliber .51 caliber bullets have ballistic coefficients similar to the proverbial barn door, only .51 caliber bullets with weights greater than 450 grains have BCs good enough to produce the necessary trajectory AND delivered energy. "Heavy" bullets mean higher pressures and more recoil. There just ain't no free lunches when it comes to reloading. So here are the .51-caliber bullets I am considering:

1) Northwest Custom Projectiles (NwCP) 400-grain Flat Base. BC = .226
(NwCP is no longer in business, which means I can't get any more of these bullets.)
2) NwCP 500-grain Flat Base. BC = .283
3) NwCP 500-grain Rebated Boat-tail. BC = .289 (I know, not much better than the FB!)
4) Woodleigh 450-grain Flat Base Round Nose. BC = .257
5) Woodleigh 450-grain run through my .51 caliber pointing die. BC = .396
6) My swaged bullets made with lead cores and brass jackets. They weigh on average about 535 grains and have an average BC of about .412. (See here for the process of making those bullets http://www.thehunterslife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12385&highlight=swaging)
7) Hawk also makes .51 caliber bullets, but I don't have any of theirs. If I run out of the NwCP bullets before I get good loads developed, I'll be getting some of these Hawk bullets.

Here is a picture of the .51 caliber bullets under consideration:


Here are the swaged ones:


The choice of bullets for the .416x.348 Win is:
1) Hawk 400-grain Spitzer. BC = .500??
2) Hawk 500-grain "Spitzer". BC = .620??
3) Hornady 450-grain Boat-tail Spitzer. BC = 1.103
4) Hornady 400-grain DGX. BC = .319
5) Nosler 400-grain Partition. BC = .390
6) Speer 350-grain Mag-Tip. BC = .332
7) Hawk 350-grain Spitzer. BC = .437 (I don't believe this BC.)

Here are their pictures:


So, to wrap this post up:
1) The 1879 Martini-Henry will remain my first choice for the first "period" I get to hunt.
2) The .338 Win Mag - long since my "go to" rifle - is always 'there' for 'back-up".
3) Between the .50-90 Sharpe's and the .416 Ruger, it will come down to which one CONSISTENTLY shoots the best.

Here are pictures of the rifles being considered, and the cartridges they are chambered in.
Top to bottom:
1879 Martini-Enfield in .50-70/.50 Alaskan/.51x348 Winchester
Ruger "No. 2" in .416x348 Winchester (With birch, not persimmon, stocks mounted.)
Pedersoli "Quigley" in .50-90 Sharps
Sauer Model 90 in .338 Winchester Magnum


And here are the cartridges side-by-side from left to right:
.50-70 AKA "50 Alaskan"
.50-90 Sharps
.416x.348 Winchester
.338 Winchester Magnum


Paul

What's that ick on the end of the 338's barrel ? A very beautiful rifle tho.

RJ

To add:

Having shot the 50 Alaskan I find it very intriguing and most appropriate for your adventure.

RJ

Quote from: recoil junky;152566What's that ick on the end of the 338's barrel ?

 RJ

Like the rest of us, Paul is getting older.
So hey, give him a brake!

Quote from: recoil junky;152566What's that ick on the end of the 338's barrel ? A very beautiful rifle tho.RJ

Couldn't agree more. However, it came with it, and I don't have a thread protector to cover the threads if I take it off.

Paul

Quote from: Jamie.270;152569Like the rest of us, Paul is getting older.
So hey, give him a brake!

Arr, arr, arr!

Puns are the best form of humor!

Paul

So another "fact of life" reared its ugly head: Temperature effect on ballistics. Again, this is a bigger issue the more your bullet's trajectory approaches a rainbow, AND, this hunt takes place in winter in Interior Alaska. That said, I went looking for the "average temperature" in Fairbanks in October, November, February, and March, and was a little surprised at the values.
October, +35 degrees F
November, +10 degrees F
February, +13 degrees F
March, +23 degrees F.

Of course, those are "average" temperatures, and having lived in Fairbanks for 6 years, I know it can be -40 F in November and February, and certainly -20 F in March. As a rule, October isn't too cold, as "Alaskan cold" goes. HOWEVER, +20 F is still COLD to hunt in, (even without considering wind chill), and is ballistically significantly colder than even 50 F. Once I get notification of what two 30-day periods I get to hunt, I'll work up some "cold weather" loads. This also means that I need to do some shooting kinda soon - February and March - because there is a distinct possibility that I'll be hunting in one of those months.

Paul

PS - As I mentioned in the first post, the Sharp's Quigley is 'cold-blooded'. That large-capacity case, especially filled with SLOW powder just doesn't like to ignite fully and consistently in the cold. If I end up having to hunt in November or February, I'll probably make up some duplex loads that put a little "pistol" or "shotgun" powder near the primer to ensure consistent/reliable ignition in the cold.

Paul

In the Quigely, are you shooting cast of jacketed and what grain bullet?

RJ

The Quigley will get fed the exact same bullets the 50 Alaskan does. No cast. I have never been able to get them to 1) shoot very straight, and 2) not LEAD! Also, driving cast bullets at the velocities I'd have to to be useful at 300 would cause A LOT of leading! Jacketed only in any rifle I take. The 50 Alaskan and Quigley will also get my swaged, jacketed .510 caliber bullets for load development, but, just like all the rest, they have to shoot straight 'to make the cut'.

Paul

So, I have been 'hard at it' trying to get a load worked out for the 'big guns':
1) .416x.348 Win on the Ruger "No.2",
2) 50-90 Sharps "Quigley", and
3) 50 Alaskan on the 1879 Martini-Enfield.

Those that know me, understand what "hard at it" means. I've been measuring and number crunching for the better part of a week. Measuring-calculating-paper-whipping, "rinse and repeat". Yesterday and today I fired some test-shots to see if QuickLOAD was going to give me 'ballpark' estimations. The short answer to that question is "No".

I checked three loads for the .416:
1) 350-grain Speer using 44.1 grains of I4227 - predicted MV =2056 f/s
2) 400-grain Hornady using 40.0 grains of I4227 - predicted MV = 1869 f/s, and
3) 400-grain Nosler Partition using 50.5 grains of Accurate 2495 - predicted MV = 1951 f/s.

The measured MVs were:
1) 2028 f/s - slow by 28 f/s. I consider that "close".
2) 1776 f/s - slow by 93 f/s. I do not consider that even "ballpark".
3) 1838 f/s - slow by 113 f/s. Worse yet.

Since the 350 Speer was "close", (-28f/s, and anything within 50 f/s I consider "good"), I don't know what to make of the 400 Hornady bullet data. While in the same direction, "slow", the Hornady error is more than 3 times the error of the 350 Speer bullet. That's not acceptable. The Accurate 2495 is even worse. An over-estimate of MV of more than 100f/s. That's "bad".

Today, I worked up some test loads for the 50 Alaskan and the Quigley, both using my 'hand-made' bullets. The Alaskan got a 558-grain bullet charged with 54.1 grains of Accurate 2495. The Quigley got a 559-grain bullet behind 61.2 grains of Accurate 2495. Predicted MVs were 1676 f/s and 1821 f/s, respectively. The actual MVs were 1531 f/s and 1608 f/s, respectively. Prediction errors of 145 f/s and 213 f/s, respectively.

Here's what the cartridges looked like before firing.


The above makes QuickLOAD essentially USELESS for load development. Which in turn means I have to waste significantly more bullets, powder, and time developing a load. These bullets ain't cheap, and the ones from Northwest Custom Projectiles are no longer available. Which in turn means that by the time I get the load worked out, I'll probably not have enough left for hunting. Which in turn means that I should probably just start with Hawk .51 caliber bullets at about $1.25 each. Doesn't sound TOO bad until you consider that I will need AT LEAST 100 of them so that I'll have enough to hunt with after I figure out the load.

I wish I knew what was wrong with QuickLOAD (QL) when it comes to large-capacity, straight-walled cases. My personal experience seems to be consistent with the conclusion that QL becomes less and less accurate as case capacity goes up AND as cases go to straight-walled from bottle-necked. It's frustrating to me because I know how well QL works in the smaller-capacity cases, and I have come to rely on not having to peck around like a blind chicken, (wasting resources), when it comes to load workup.

Another 'problem' has also reared it's head with the Ruger and the Quigley: The cocking lever HURTS my middle finger on my trigger hand. That little 'squiggle' right behind the trigger guard SLAMS into one's middle finger. On cartridges with lower recoil, it's a non-issue, but on these stiff-recoiling cartridges, it's a BIG problem. I've heard complaints about the Ruger, but none about the Quigley. However, it's my experience anyway, that BP shooters would eat a bug before they'd complain about one of the "old classics" though. I don't suffer from that malady: It HAMMERED the middle finger of my trigger hand. SOMETHING HAS to be done to mitigate that problem.

More when there is more to report.

Paul

Quote from: gitano;152681It HAMMERED the middle finger of my trigger hand. SOMETHING HAS to be done to mitigate that problem.
Paul

Take the 338 and start building a fence with the others...


yeah, I know - unhelpful

I never put my fingers under the lever on a SS with a lever of this design. I use it as sort of a pistol grip. I don't think it was designed to put a finger under it between the lever and stock grip. The Hi Wall Winchester I built a 45/120/3 1/4 inch on was a brain buster with 350 grain bullets and 95 grains of H-4895 but it didn't bother my fingers. I had no love for the gun & pulled the barrel & sold it to Jay Edwards. (RIP) .......Paul H

The only way not to place my finger 'back there' is not to grip the "grip" of the stock, which in turn means I'm not "holding onto" the stock very well, which in turn means it's going to kick me harder. I may have to make a thick and hard leather pad to fit on that finger.

Part of the problem I had this week was that I was sort of shooting "from the hip" - not with the rifles shouldered. The reason is that these were just test shots for MV values and were not aimed at anything in particular except a bullet stop. Because I wasn't 'aiming' while at a bench, (I was standing), and MOSTLY because the cord between the MagnetoSpeed bayonet (at the muzzle) and the "box" recording the data is short, I couldn't shoulder the rifles. As such, the rifles 'moved' A LOT more than they would have had they been shouldered. HOWEVER, even at my shoulder, they would still have slammed that finger. (Which is black and blue and still swollen two days later.)

The Martini-Enfield doesn't have this problem regardless of how you hold it because the cocking lever "squiggle" is completely behind the hand when in the shooting position.

Paul

In an effort to get uniform and consistent ignition, I use Lee Precision's "Factory Crimp" die (FCD) on the .50 Alaskan. Since I "need it now", instead of ordering a separate FCD for the .50-90 Sharps, I just made a 'ring' to slip over the case of the Sharps and can use the .50 Alaskan FCD for the .50-90. However, I didn't have an FCD for the .416x.348 Win, so I ordered a 'custom' one from Lee Precision. Delivery was quoted as "6 to 8 weeks" and required sending a dummy round for them to use.

Because I am "in a hurry", (and impatient), I considered just getting an FCD for the .348 Win, removing the collet, reaming the collet to appropriate size for the .416, and re-installing it. However, the cost of having Lee Precision make a proper custom one, (before shipping and not including shipping of dummy round), was $27. That's just too good a price to fiddle around with modifying a .348 Win FCD. I sent the dummy round off about 10 days ago. Yesterday I got an email informing me that my custom die had been shipped! I REALLY like Lee Precision. And that's no 'faint praise'. Often as soon as one praises some business, they do something stupid. I've been doing business with Lee Precision since the VERY FIRST days of my reloading more than 50 years ago and they have never let me down. They are an American business that Americans can actually be proud of without having to "wave the flag" to do it.

As soon as I get the die, I'll load up some .416 ammo and head to the range.

News at 11.

Paul