While visiting sakorick recently, I not only got to 'pull the trigger' for the first time in over a year, I also got my gun 'mojo' reinvigorated. With last year's hunting successes, (the bison, the once-in-a-lifetime whitetail, last year's mixed bag of squirrels, rabbits, pheasants and fish at Rick and John's), AND all the hoohah with COVID-19 and the national election, the wind was pretty much outta my sails with regard to anything to do with guns or hunting. The trip to Missouri cured that ailment. :D

First, I fell in love with one of Rick's rifles: the Sako P94S, chambered in .22 LR. I'm on the hunt, seriously, for one of those. Second, Rick and I are doing some horse-trading with firearms he doesn't want, for ones I have several of. Third, I did indeed get to HUNT a bit, and that was reinvigorating!

One of the things we did was shoot some VERY old Herters 8mm ammo. (Kinda strange stuff, actually.) In doing that, Rick decided he might rebarrel the 8mm we were using, as it was shooting patterns instead of groups. He noted that he had "just about everything" when it came to cartridges he was interested in so we were trying to decide on what would be a good choice. After some misfires, I suggested the .338 MAI. I really have come to love that cartridge, especially with the 220-grain Accubond. My hand-loads produce MVs that are only 50 f/s slower than my .338 Win Mag hand-loads. With that bullet, the thing shoots 'like a laser', and the thing just SLAMS white-tails to the ground - Dead Right There!

Rick liked the idea, and we started talking about how to 'git 'er done'. Y'all may recall that I had the Ruger #3 rebarreled to .416x.348 Win by PacNor, (http://www.thehunterslife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19959&highlight=PacNor), and was VERY PLEASED with the result. You may also remember that PacNor's shop burned down last year. At the time, they hadn't decide whether or not they would rebuild. I gave them a call.

Much to my surprise and pleasure, they answered the phone and told me that they were indeed "back in business"! Not only that, they were still providing exactly the same services for exactly the same prices! YEEHAH! All they needed was the .338 MAI reamer. I told Rick I had one. I was wrong. :cry: So, I decided to call Pacific Tool and Gauge to see what a new reamer would run these days. That's a long story that I won't go into now. Of course they have the reamer, but because "Ashley" (or I), couldn't find it, I ended up speaking with Dave Kiff, the proprietor. THAT was an very interesting conversation.

I had noted two new items PTG was offering for sale. Actually, there were MANY new-to-me items for sale, but there were two that were VERY interesting. The first was rifling tooling. That's right. The tools to cut rifling. I have been looking for that for decades! Second, and somewhat related, "barrel boring reamers". WHOA! I asked Kiff about those items. "Sure" he said. "Just tell us what dimensions you want. We make the barrel reamer for all the major barrel manufacturers. We can make anything you want and have it CIP approved in 6 months." HOLEE COW!

Here's the last piece of the puzzle. As I mentioned here: http://www.thehunterslife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20697&highlight=selling, I'm selling off much of my collection. I just sold 7 Mosin Nagants and an SKS. I doing so, I had to look over my collection, which in turn had me asking myself the question: "Why did you buy this piece of garbage?" The answer to that question is: You were going to cannibalize it to make something else! Those "something elses" included a BUNCH of 8mm barrels. RIGHT! I can bore those shot-out barrels out, and install LINERS of the desired caliber and twist rate in them! They then fit perfectly on the receiver to which they were originally attached! YEEHAH!

HERE'S THE CLINCHER!

When I told Kiff what I had in mind, he said: "Y'know, you can take your barrel blank to a local machine shop that grinds bewteen centers, and have the blank turned to a specific OD that will be perfectly aligned with the bore. Furthermore, with our barrel reamers, you can get a perfect fit, that once installed, is practically invisible. And they shoot great!" I actually detected a little excitement in his voice.

Oh, I forgot to add one other piece of the puzzle: I recently found a local sawyer that has a lot of local birch. It's GORGEOUS! I bought three big cants (8"x8"x9', 8"x8"x10', and 8"x8"x9.5'). They are currently at about 25% water content. When they drop to about 13%, I'll take them back and have him cut them into thicknesses appropriate for rifle stocks - about 2 and 5/8ths inches. I'll then cut them into stock blanks and air dry them to about 7%.

So, I am back in the rifle-making mind-set, if not yet "mode". I have ALL the pieces available to actually even rifle my own barrels if I so choose. I am STOKED! At this point, all I need to find is a local machine shop that will do the grinding to make liners. I'm sure there's at least one - maybe only one - in Alaska.

I'm thinking .338x54R may be my first 'make'. It was one of the first 'wildcats' I envisioned when I started collecting milsurps for cannibalization. There will be a .257 caliber in there pretty soon, too. A .257 liner should fit nicely in a skanky milsurp barrel that has been reamed out to take a liner.




Paul

I'm glad your trip to the lower 48 had such a restorative affect on you Paul.  Welcome back.

I've spoken with Dave Kiff about 3 times, and all were very enlightening conversations indeed.
I don't remember any minute details about what we discussed, but I remember being VERY impressed after each call.
That doesn't happen very often lately.  Not to me anyway.

I've spoken with him on numerous occasions. All have been pleasant experiences. Honestly, he seemed much more willing than usual to talk this time. I'm sure I'll have a more in depth conversation when I start ordering pieces.

At the moment, I'm inventorying what I have for candidates. I feel the need to lay out ALL of the elements before I go off half-cocked. That is, have every piece I need either in hand or identified for acquisition. Right up to and including complete stock making and bluing.

I have one m96 Swede action, three Turk '38 actions, one VZ 24 action, one m91/30 Mosin Nagant hex batreled action, and several complete Turk '38 rifles purchased to be cannibalized. I have too many 8mm take-off bbls to bother counting, plus, I have barrel blanks in .177, .323, .338, and .375. Those will become liners.

I need to get the birch cants closer to being blanks, run down a RELIABLE bluing provider, nail down a stock-shaper that is willing to do what EYE want with MY blanks, (that will be no small feat!), and find a machine shop that will grind the blanks into "liners". After I decide on the first cartridge, I'll get back to Kiff and start ordering tooling.

While another .338 MAI will absolutely be among the first chamberings used, I am thinking about something in .257 for the 8mm take-offs or possibly the hex MN barreled action - a .257x54R. The . 25 Cossack... Anything .323 and smaller won't require modification of the MN magazine. Unfortunately, the .338 does.

Paul

So... I've been 'fiddlin', AKA paper-whipping ballistics. �� I'm sure you're shocked.

Looked at the .257x54R (theoretical). Using a 110-grain Accubond, I can get "on node" at a max estimated pressure of 54,76O PSI. Sighted in for 2" high at 150, it'll be -3.4" low at 300, for a total vertical deflection if 5.4" over 300 yd. Delivered energy at 300 is 1629ft-lb. More than enough for whitetail deer.

Let me compare that with the .25 Krag AI I have in hand. Same bullet. 2" high at 150 - 5.1" low at 300. Total vertical deflection over 300 yd is 7.1". Delivered energy at 300: 1366 ft-lb.

Those are known values for the Krag. Honestly, I expect the actual values for the x54R to be higher than the theoretical ones because I think the theoretically predicted case capacity is low. Nevertheless, even if the theoretical is close, it is a good deer/antelope cartridge out to 300 yd at least. Plenty good enough for me.

Paul

I can get a 27", 257 caliber barrel blank from Green Mountain for $111 plus shipping. I don't know what grinding is going to cost, but let's say $150. (I hope it's less than that, but this IS Alaska, after all, where the state "gives" us money "just for living here. :angry:) Including shipping, let's call that $300. Painful, but not deal killing. A custom Pacific Tool and Gauge reamer will cost close to $200. The barrel reamer is tougher to figure as its cost will be amortized over several barrels. Let's just add $50 for 'general principles'. The barrel into which the liner will go, I have. As do I have the receiver. After all the  cutting, the birch stock blanks are going cots me less than $10. Let's say shaping, inletting and checkering will cost $300. Bluing will be less than $100, but let's call it that. Ignoring sights, that's a total of $960. I'll round up to $1000. I could save the grinding and boring costs - $200 - by profiling and threading the GM barrel blank myself. But... That means removing the barrel from the receiver and fitting the new bbl to it. Personal experience shows that the Soviet and Turk receivers aren't exactly machined to consistent specs. There's more than a little 'tweaking' required for good/proper barrel fits.

Should I care to, I could buy the rifling cutting tooling and coupled with the barrel boring tooling, just make my own barrels..

Oh well, for the time being, I'll stick to the pipe dreams at hand. I'm liking the .25 Cossack. I also like the .25x56R, (the M-95 Hungarian ctg.), and the .338x56R.

Paul

Paul, if I was gonna make a small caliber wildcat based on the 7.62x54 case I would go with a 6.5 instead of .257. You should get a bit more  velocity with the same weight bullet and pressure. I suspect you'll be happier with the results. I definitely would. ......Paul H

I was pretty sure someone would suggest the 6.5mm. I thought it would be sakorick. If Ol'John was still around, he would have for sure!


I don't know why, I have no objective reason, but the 6.5mm  has just never 'turned my crank'. I don't have anything against it, I just like the .257 better. I know that I could get more oomph from the 6.5mm/.264, but...

I'll look at what Accubond bullets are available in 6.5mm and do some more paperwhipping. Heck, I could go to the 7mm. I like it better than the 6.5 too. And then there's the 8mm, and the... Some like red-heads, some brunettes.


So many calibers, so little time.
 
Paul

Giving fair shake to the 6.5mm:

130-grain Accubond
Sighted in for 2" high at  150 yd
Total vertical deflection is 6.7" over 300 yd
And energy delivered to 300 yd is 1754 ft-lb.

Clearly better delivered energy at 300. Only an inch lower (4.7) at 300.

I'll have a look at delivered energy comparison at 100 and 200 yd.
  . . . . . . . . . ..257 . . . . . ..264
100yd. . . . . 2171 . . . . . 2317
200yd. . . . . 1853 . . . . . 2018
300yd. . . . . 1575 . . . . . 1754

I'm a little surprised. Usually lighter bullets have an energy advantage at shorter yardages due to a higher MV. The .257 110 is indeed some 200+ f/s faster at the muzzle, but that's not enough to make up for the extra mass of the 130 PLUS the higher BC.

I still 'like' the Quarterbore. [/SIZE]

Paul

I've seen enough of what Evan's rifle does and 7 one shot kills makes me a believer!

Sakorick wanted me to compare the 6.5mm 140-grain Accubond, so here it is. Everything the same including seating depth, (one caliber), which may be a stretch given that the 140 is starting to look a lot like a pencil.

Total vertical deflection over 300 yd is 7.3".
Delivered energy to 100, 200, and 300 yd is: 2357, 2063, and 1799 ft-lb, respectively.

That's slightly less than 50 ft-lb increase at each point, which is insignificantly different in my opinion, from the 130. The 140 drops about another half an inch or so over the 300 yd.[/SIZE]

Paul

Okay who are you and what have you done with Paul "Light For Caliber" Gitano?
There are plenty of 6.5 bullets in the 90-120 gr category.
Everything from cup&core Sierras to Lehigh Defense "Controlled Chaos" and bonded Gold Dot slugs from Speer.

https://www.midwayusa.com/bullets/br?cid=19785&targetLocation=%2F_%2FN-19785%2B4294918658%3FNo%3D72%26Np%3D2%26Nr%3DAND%2528p_visible%253A1%252Ccustomertypeid%253A1%2529%26Nrpp%3D24%26Ns%3Dp_metric_sales_velocity%257C1%26Ntpc%3D1%26Ntpr%3D1

I appreciate the query, Jamie. 270. I had those thoughts too. Especially when dropping down into the smaller calibers. The 'thing' is, as much as I hate to ballyhoo ANY bullet manufacturer or design, based on personal experience, that Accubond seems to be 'the real deal' when it comes to terminal performance. And..  Its published BCs are consistent with my measurements. Therefore, my choices are driven more by the Accubond available in the caliber, than the weight of the bullet. Furthermore, Nosler seems to have figured out the BC vs terminal performance "mystery".

Since all of the Accubonds have high BCs for their relative weights, going "light for caliber" doesn't have the advantages it used to. The non-Accubond exception is that 220-grain BTSP in 8mm from Sierra. Still "heavy" for 8mm, but a screaming BC, great terminal performance, AND easy to get shooting straight in the 8x.376 Steyr.

Paul

As I have mentioned before, I LIKE the 'little' Hungarian Steyr M-95 cartridge AND rifle, A LOT. Unfortunately, the availability of .330 caliber bullets is a big deterrent to using the rifle to hunt with. However, necked up to .338, (my 'new' favorite caliber), the rifle gets 'real' as a Hunter.

As issued, the carbine's barrel is only 19.75" long. While that endears it to me in the looks department, it puts limits on performance. Furthermore, the max pressure spec for the straight-pull action is 51,488 PSI, further limiting its ballistic performance. However, l have of course, paper-whipped some numbers for you. The results are appealing to me.

Initial conditions for ALL comparisons are:
Sighted in for 2" high max,
Bullet seated one caliber deep,
Max pressure allowed equivalent to 85% of max spec. (85% of 51,488 is 45,500 PSI.)

Using the Nosler 180-grain Accubond (hereafter "AB"), I get the following out of QuickLoad:
Muzzle Energy (indicator of felt recoil) - 2856ft-lb
2" hi at 120yd, 9.3" lo at 300. Total vertical deflection: 11.3".
Delivered energy at 100, 200, and 300 yd is 2374, 1957, and 1601, respectively.
Impact velocity at 300 yd is 2002 f/s.

Using the 200-grain AB:
2901ft-lb of Muzzle Energy,
2"hi @ 120, 10.6" lo @ 300 yd. Total very. defl.: 12.6".
Delivered energy @ 100, 200, & 300 yd is; 2450, 2050, and 1710 ft-lb respectively.
Impact velocity @ 300 - 1962f/s.

Might as well do the 225-grainer.
2950ft-lb of Muzzle Energy.
2" hi @ 120, 11.4" lo @ 300. Total vert. defl. - 13.4".
Delivered energy @ 100, 200, & 300 yd is: 2591, 2267, and 1976 ft-lb respectively.
Impact velocity @ 300 - 1989f/s.

Those are all 300-yd "deer cartridges" to my way if looking at things. I think I would probably go with the 180-grainer for the flatter trajectory, PLUS, most of my shots are under 200yd, and impact velocity (2000+f/s), and delivered energy (1600+ft-lb), are both in the "hammer" category at ranges less than 300yd.

What I read from those that seek real data instead of "the sky is falling" fear-mongered data, is that the M-95 is stronger than 45,500 PSI. (In other words, it can be run up closer to its max spec of 51,488 PSI without danger.) HOWEVER, it's nice to know that even at that very modest 45,500 PSI chamber pressure, the cartridge still performs well for deer-ish critters at 300yd and less. With the right bullet.

Now the question is, "Can I get the barrel reamed and a liner chambered in .338x56R installed in one?"


Paul

Hmm...
I was looking through my selection of M-95s when I remembered I had the "rifle" version from which all of the "carbines" were made. The length of the barrel on the rifle is 30.25". :D So...

With all of the same initial parameters, especially the 45,500 PSI max pressure, I get the following from the 180-grain AB:


Muzzle Energy - 3485ft-lb
2" hi at 140yd, 6.0" lo at 300. Total vertical deflection: 8.0".
Delivered energy at 100, 200, and 300 yd is 2915, 2424, and 2011, respectively.
Impact velocity at 300 yd is 2244 f/s.

Those are significant improvements! The downside - and it's a big one - is that I'd have to permanently modify an historically correct old battle rifle, of which there aren't a huge number. There are a couple of alternatives, most of which I don't like. One is: Remove the action, install a new bbl and put it in a 'modern' stock. I don't like that for a couple of reasons, but it would preserve the historical heritage as the original pieces could be reassembled.

I could swage some ABs down from .338 to .330. That would preserve the historical integrity, but I don't know what that might do to the terminal performance of the AB. (Personal, first-hand experience swaging factory bullets proves that external ballistics - trajectory and precision - are not affected by swaging.) Testing should reveal an answer to the terminal performance question, but that testing would not be trivial to perform. (Ballistic gelatin blocks, etc.)

Should I choose to go down the rebarrel route, getting a 30.25" finished length barrel blank ain't easy; or cheap.

It is important for me to keep in mind my goals, and not be swayed by the opportunities that new tooling presents. My goals are to ream existing, worn-out, milsurp barrels that fit existing milsurp actions, to accept liners made from barrel blanks of the desired caliber and chamberings. In that light, the only course of action for the m-95 Steyr Rifle is partial destruction of the historical record that the rifle represents. Note that I did NOT say "collector's value" (ptooey) that I couldn't care less about.




Paul

Paul,


Now you have me "fiddling".  I've got a barrel blank and a spare VZ24 action w/ bent handle bolt in storage. The reason it remains "put away" is that the barrel bore is 6.5 mm with 1:10 twist. Not optimum for long bullets but I was thinking this might be a fun cast bullet project. Haven't considered what cartridge choice yet but your thread has me thinking about it now!