Paper patched bullets for 9.3mm- Jay?

Started by Brithunter, June 26, 2006, 09:18:43 AM

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Brithunter

Hi All,

        Hmmm I wonder if anyone can throw some light on this for me. Jay might be able to ........................ well I am hoping that he can :D . Due to the stupidity of our laws and the fact that the local Plods wish to remove the Husqvarna Model 46 in 9.3x57mm from the ones I can hunt deer with which in turn means that I cannot get expanding (soft point) bullets for it anymore :rolleyes:  and as I do not know of a reliable source of  FMJ or Match bullets in 9.3mm I am reduced to using cast or most likely paper patched bullets due to the velocities I wish to obtain.

   The aim is to develop a load using bullets in the 200-250 grain range at velocites of 2000-2350fps hence the idea of using paper patched bullets, also with the patched bullets if I can get a nice accurate shooting load giving say 1" or so groups the possiblitly of hunting with a softish lead paper patched bullet becomes a possibilty.:D .

   The main problem is that on the Husqvarna the bore or rather groove size is what most would call oversize :confused:  the grooves are about 0.008" deep. Measuring it with a Digital vernier caliper the best I can gives a groove size of 0.371" and a bore size of 0.356". Now one option is to get a sizer die for my Lyman 4450 lube sizer which I have never used as of yet :o  and buy a 0.375" mould and size the bullets down to 0.372" or try to utilise the Lyman moulds I picked up at a show some years ago when I first got this rifle.


They are actually 0.358" moulds numbers:-

35897
35875

   The 35897 mould is a tapered nose Gas Checked bullet of 226 grains and I have wondered about clocking it up in the 4 jaw and boring it out slightly :p . The 35875 is a 200 grain mould I am led to believe and I wonder if I could patch this bullet up to suit my purpose. Now I did tinker with this a while back and they shot, well they went downrange but that's about all I can really say :o, ideas about powders and paper suitable for this would be apprieciated :D .

   Of course I really need to make up a tapered expander to allow the necks to be made the correct size to accept the patched bullets without tearing the patch. I do have a Lyman "M" die here for .31 long so making a new "M" type plug to fit the die would likely be the best route to go :) .

  I am all ears gentlemen :D .
Go Get them Floyd!

Jay Edward (deceased)

Just passing through BH so this will be fast.  I have a conference I'm getting ready for and I was just checking email.

I think you could do this Hoss... use the finest linen paper you can get your hands on and cut it at an angle.  If you're not familiar with the process I'll put up some images.  I'll be back tomorrow night and check THL for your reply.

I believe it would be best to turn an undersize mould in your lathe with a slight taper.  It would also help to have a slight hollow base to curl up the ends of the paper patch.

I'll check in tomorrow night or the first thing Wednesday morning.

Brithunter

Thanks Jay,

    Good luck with the conference :D .

   Oh I have Paul Mathews Book "The Paper Jacket" and have patched bullets for the 577/450 before. However this higher velocity and using smokeless powder is a new ball game to me :o . The dished base would mean a nose pour mould and a base plug for the dish. Hmmmmm have to give this some thought and will see what material I have, should have some mild steel of a suitable size may even have some Dural alloy ;)  will check tomorrow sometime in the workshop.

   I did start to make a PP mould on the Old Ideal idea whch produces a straight sided bullet but I think that was in .375 when i had the 9.5mm. Will have to look it out and see :confused: .
Go Get them Floyd!

drinksgin (deceased)

BH;
I am shooting water dropped wws, with a gas check, at 2400fps in my .35 Whelen and have no leading problems.
I have the Lyman 200gr rngc, actually 215gr with gc and lube and the Lee C358-158 SWC , molds, both are fine,.
The Lee universal case expanding die will bell everything from .22 to .50 and is only about $10 US, here.
Easy enough to make one, I have made a reshaped expander for a friend to use with .45 AR cases.
As you have a lathe and the experience and training, I would expect you to have no real problems.
Don
NRA life, TSRA life, SAF life, GOA, CCRKBA, DEF -CON

Brithunter

Hi Drinksgin,

     Had wondered about using Gas Checked cast bullets but with it's different bore size from the normal US sizes I wonder how they would work :confused:  9.3mm is nominally 0.366" however seeing as how the grooves are deep on these Husqvarnas' and the experts claim that a cast bullet needs to be 0.001" over groove size perhaps I can get away with sizing gas checks down 0.003". Have to check the availability of gas checks around here. Oh what lube are you using? need to check if I can that too ;) . May sound daft but stuff like this is not easily obtained here :o .


    Although hunting with cast bullets is not legal here at least not to my knowledge :rolleyes:  the law states that it must be an expanding bullet i.e. one that is designed to expand. Don't think a cast lead bullet would meet their ideas on that unless it's cast soft which is another reason for the interest in the paper patching :D .
 
     Have a reasonable supply of lead at the moment although I still have to move some of it up here, it's still down South :rolleyes: , but probably have about 300lbs of it and a lot of it's soft:D . Have some hard stuff as well and I will enquire about getting some more whilst I can. Need to get my shed workshop built so I can play some more with this stuff :o . It's raining a little today but Mother wants the grass cut AGAIN :rolleyes:  seems you can almost see and hear the darned stuff growing. Well that's most of the day taken care of using a 20" mower cutting about 3/4 of an acre around all the flower beds etc takes some time :( .
Go Get them Floyd!

drinksgin (deceased)

Brit;
If the groove is .371", you will likely get best results at a size of .373".
Lee has a .379 mold, plain base, but I make gas check bullets of several plain base bullets in the lathe, quite fast once you get the setting on the cross slide established.
RCBS has a .376" gas check mold, but an  RCBS mold with Lee handles will be about $100 US by the time it gets to you.
.375 gas checks are $26 UD per 1000.
A good lube can be made by mixing equal parts of pure , unsalted, lard and bee's wax.
You would have no problem making a Lee type sizer/ gas check seater and my hot lubing method is quick and easy and requires no equipment other than a small, flat  container, a hot plate with a thermostat and heavy tweasers or small forceps.
WWS, with a small amount of arsenic, from chilled lead shot, about 2 oz shot to 10lb of alloy, will water drop to a BHN of 29-32, quite hard, as linotype is only BHN 20.
The waterdropped wws will expand, even though they are harder than the linotype, which will shatter if hitting a bone.
I cannot remember the name, but a person in GB makes custom molds at quite reasonable prices, 15-20 Elb, if I remember correctly.
I shall do a search in the forums I frequent and see if I can find the name.
Back later.
Don
NRA life, TSRA life, SAF life, GOA, CCRKBA, DEF -CON

drinksgin (deceased)

Brit;
Sorry, the mold maker in England is only making ball molds, no conical bullets.
Don
NRA life, TSRA life, SAF life, GOA, CCRKBA, DEF -CON

Brithunter

Hi All,

     Thankyou Don for that information :D  just now this is all in the research and planning stages. Beeswax I have and can get ;)  lard shouln't be a problem and making a sizing die to fit a press should not be beyond me either even if it's been some while since I used a lathe, well manual lathe anyway :p . It's bee nearly a year since I did any machining :o  unless you caount facing off a barrel flat after sawing off half the chamber to please the stupid police :rolleyes: .

    Ahh just thought where that partly made mould could be and yes it was in the case :D  it's based on the old Ideal adjustable caverty idea the nose shape is in the  plunger/punch which is used to adjust the length/weight of the bullet the mould is 0.376" and smooth straight sided. There should be another of a smaller size somewhere about I will see if I can find that as well. Made this one at work Oh about 5 years ago then traded the rifle it was for off so it just sat on my bookcase shelf :rolleyes: . It's made of stainless steel and I think that I will make a handle for it and finish it off and try it out to see what kind of bullet it makes. To finish it I need to make the sprue plate ( have some guage plate which should do) and drill and tap the mould for the pivot screw. It's a base pour mould and by making new plugers I can change the nose shape, a hollow poin could be a good idea.

   Now chilled shot you say :D  well I overheard that the gunshop which stocks reloading stuff also does some shotgun stuff so may just have some shot in stock :p . Mould handles I have two sets of Lyman ones ;) .

   You know this could be fun :D  I will see about the prices of lead from the scrap man so suppliment what i already have.
Go Get them Floyd!

Jay Edward (deceased)

Passin' through again BH.

I think the paper patch with the undersize non-grooved bullet might solve the legal problems... especially with regard to the softness of the lead.  I'm sure you could get away with pretty pure lead as long as it is only the linen touching the barrel.

I'm not sure you would need lubricant with smokeless but my personal lubricant is from an old recipe I've used for years.  Beeswax and Peanut oil (which you can usually buy in a grocery store)... and Castille soap so that you don't run into problems on very hot days.  The Castille soap melts at a higher temperature so you'll have to have a separate heat source when you mix it with the Beeswax and Peanut oil (which must be liquid as well).  The result is a very good lubricant that works with most loads (smokeless or blackpowder) in all temperatures.

I mix it in a 5# coffee can (usually two at a time) and it will go far with the average shooter.  When I first started mixing it I didn't use the Castille soap and found it was good to eat as well.:D

The Castille soap has Cocoanut oil mixed in with it and some feel that this has some benefits.  I don't know about that but I do know that I can make it myself and it costs only a fraction of the store bought.  I found some on a back shelf of my shop that had been made up years earlier and it still worked well.

Brithunter

Hi Jay,

    The legal problem still rears it's ugly head and using the rifle without it being specified upon my licence for deer is a breach of the conditions :mad:  and you thought some of you laws were converluted :confused: . However perfecting a load using a soft lead cast bullet paper patched means that I can vary the rifles on my licence that I can use for deer with a "good reason" it also gives a good reason to shoot one of my collection on the range and avoids the problems of using "expanding bullets" which are only allowed to be on the range for zeroing. They don't have a clasue for load development as those idiots who wrote it know nothing about handloading :rolleyes:  and probably don't know that you can handload as they probably expect everyone to buy factory stuff :( .

  I dug out an Old GunMart magazine and checked the price of Hornady Gas checks, the mag is a year old but gives an idea I suppose. .375" Gas Checks were £16:73 ($30:11 US) per 1,000 so I will enquire at the shop and see if they can get them. Just because the importers advertise them does not mean they have any in stock :rolleyes: , be interesting to see if they have, and whilst I am at it I will ask about the prices and availablity of various moulds like the Lee ones ;) .

QuoteThe Castille soap has Cocoanut oil mixed in with it and some feel that this has some benefits. I don't know about that but I do know that I can make it myself and it costs only a fraction of the store bought. I found some on a back shelf of my shop that had been made up years earlier and it still worked well.
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     Hmmm never heard of this Castille Soap, peanut oil may be available from a health store which means EXPENSIVE :eek:  but I will ask tomorrow when we go into to town shopping ;) . Beeswax is probably the easiest thing to get of the lot and I have a few tablets of it already. On my BP patched bullets for the 577/450 when I had the Swinburn I used a mix of Tallow/Lard with some Abbey LT2 grease. This mix went a pale greeny colour and worked very well and I used it with my .36 cap'N'ball revovler as well :D . Not sure where I would get Tallow now though :o we used to use it for tapping in Cast Iron .

    When I locate them I should still have some commercially cast gas Checked bullets in .375 from when I had that 9.5x57mm mauser. Being hard cast I can experiment with making a sizing die to bring the size down to 0.373":p .
Go Get them Floyd!

Jay Edward (deceased)

Quote from: Brithunter[/COLOR][/SIZE] Hmmm never heard of this Castille Soap, peanut oil may be available from a health store which means EXPENSIVE :eek:  but I will ask tomorrow when we go into to town shopping ;) . Beeswax is probably the easiest thing to get of the lot and I have a few tablets of it already.

Never heard of Castile Soap!!!  Why it's an American staple from way back.  However, most of the world regards us as un-washed barbarians and probably doesn't  think we have any special soap anyhow.

The peanut oil?  No problem... America is filled with assorted nuts so it's available from the local grocery store.  I believe I bought a quart of it about 3 years ago and it was going for about 99 cents (or maybe $1.99) I just cannot remember.

Beeswax is pretty easy to locate here as well.  I haven't heard the latest on the 'killer bees' so I assume we've still got a goodly supply.

I don't work with moulds under .35 caliber myself these days.  When I was younger I was into .30 caliber moulds and loaded quite a bit for .30-30 and .30-40 Krag.  I still have the moulds and would still shoot these particular cartridges with lead in preference to jacketed but the higher veolocites , as you know, are not my cup of tea.  And I do have one more small caliber single shot to build for myself (myself!  HAH!  My boys will proably shoot it more than I do) and that will be in .32-40 Winchester.  I have a special action/lever set aside and some really fancy tight curl Maple to stock it in.  I might make one more custom windgauge sight but we'll have to see.

Anyway... I'm right interested in how your paper patch experience turns out.  Keep us in the loop.
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drinksgin (deceased)

Brit;
Try Ivory soap, 99.44% pure, at least in the ads.
The soap is to add stearic acid, which helps the lube stay mixed.
Do not use a phosphoric detergent!
If you want soap in your lube, investigate the cheap bar laundry soaps, most will have the stearic acid wanted.
NRA life, TSRA life, SAF life, GOA, CCRKBA, DEF -CON

Brithunter

Well it seems Mother at least has heard of "Castille Soap" it was branded or made by Knights here. We looked but it does not seem it's available now, found the Old Coal Tar Soap even the old Wrights brand, Hmm  wonder if that would do?
Go Get them Floyd!

Jay Edward (deceased)

My love was telling me that the Castile Soap has a vegetable base BH.  Also, it states on the label that it is hypo-alergenic... which I'm sure the game animals appreciate as well.

What is important to me is that it does not adversely affect the accuracy over a long string, seems to help (percentage) with fouling when using black powder and most importantly... keeps the lubricant stiff when the weather is hot.

I initially sought this out when shooting cap & ball revolvers since the handgun in the holster points pretty much downward.  The idea of lubricant (over ball lubricant) running out the bottom of the holster and into your boot takes the cache out of the whole pistolero lifestyle.  The Castile Soap stiffens up the lubricant to good effect.

Downside: The Beeswax/Peanut Oil concoction no longer tastes good.

With any particular additive I always wonder what residue is left after the shot.

NuJudge

I had this problem with two .43 Argentine Remington Rolling Blocks that came with (old, but unfired) new barrels.  Bullet diameter was supposed to be .439".  Groove diameter was .446".  Seating a .446" diameter bullet made it impossible to chamber the cartridge.  :mad:   Even using black powder and dead soft Lead, I could never get the bullets to bump up that far.  :mad: :mad:
 
I regularly shoot .368 Lyman bullets in a 9.3x74R, and the cartridges seem a little snug going in.  I have doubts that .371" or .373" bullets will let the cartridge chamber.  May I suggest a chamber cast to prevent further wasted effort.
 
Christopher Dingell

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