Big 51, .338 WM, .338 MAI, & 7x57 Range Report

Started by gitano, September 07, 2006, 12:17:30 PM

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gitano

It appears that I am going moose hunting tomorrow, and therefore I had to get to the range to sight a couple of rifle in, and check some things out with the Big 51 (.50x348). I went 'light', meaning no instrumentation, and only four rifles. The focus needed to be sighting in, and selecting a rifle to take on the hunt.
 
The Big 51 (exactly 11 lbs), was not really in the running, as it has too much work left to do on the stock to get accomplished in 48 hours. Plus the fact that I didn't really want to hunt it with a 'scope, and the open sights are not yet even ordered. The scope is a 3x pistol scope.
 
The 7x57, a Ruger No.1 RSI, (8 lbs 8 oz.), wasn't really being considered, but I had some old 162-grain Hornady BTHPs that I had loaded 15+ years ago for my wife's 7x57 - and I wanted to sight it in. The 7x57 is just a little light for my tastes when I might have to take a shot as far as 250+ at a moose. Furthermore, the RSI has a barrel of only 20", further reducing the MV and terminal power. So, below you will find images of a couple of targets.
 
The .338 MAI is my MAI, (9 lbs 10 oz), as opposed to the one I have been using for the past year or so, which is John's. They are very similar, but mine has a 24" Lothar Walther barrel, and John's has a 26" Adams and Bennet. Otherwise, except for cosmetics, they are identical. I was hoping that the loads I worked up using John's rifle would 'translate' right over to mine. Oh yeah, I had John's stock and scope on my rifle.
 
The .338 Win Mag (9 lbs 7 oz), is simply my 'go to' gun when it comes to meat. It shoots straight, and kills with authority. It ain't pretty, but it is a fine tool.
 
As usual, I bore-sight to start with and shoot at 25 yds to make sure I'm 'on the paper' and to adjust the scope to near-perfect. In this session, because I had the Big 51 in tow, I also shot at 50 yards.
 
The first image has the 25, 50 and 100 yds shots for the Big 51 on it; the 25 and 50 yd shots for the 7x57 and .338 WM; and the 25 yd shots for the MAI.
 
Looking at the lower right bulls-eye, you will see two outlined groups and a single shot contained in neither group. The single shot was the second 'scope adjustment shot at 25yds. (The first is not in the picture.) The two-shot group at about 11 o'clock are shots-for-group at 25, and the 4-shot group at about 1 o'clock was a shot-for-group at 50. These are all cast bullets, heavily lubed with two heavy coats of Liquid Alox.
 
The lower left bulls-eye has two uncircled shots that are the first shot and subsequent scope adjustment shot at 25 yds. The circled group is a shot-for-group at 50 yds with the 162-grain HPBTs.
 
The upper left bulls-eye (actually not the uppr-most one, but the one on the same piece of paper as the previously discussed bulls-eyes), is the 25 yd sighter, and the 50 yd group for the .338 WM. There are actually 4 holes circled. Oh yeah, I'm shooting Hornady 225s here.
 
In the far upper right, you can see a 3-shot group. It is the 50 yd group for the MAI. It loks good, and as a group goes, it is. However, with all of the elevation adjustment used up, the Point of Aim for this group was 10" low and 1" to the right of Point of Impact. There's more to that story, but I'll get to that later. No more shots with the MAI were taken.
 
In the upper-center of the image are 8 outlined bullet holes. There are 7 from the Big 51 at 100 yds, and one from the .338 WM. The one from the WM has it's own story. I'll tell that later too.
 
While this is not exactly an exemplary 8-shot group, I am tickled pink about it as it was shot completely with my hand-made bullets. When making those bullets, I had made little attempt to 'standardize' anything. I was more interested in construction techniques and processes than uniformity. As a result, they weighed 539, 548, 555, 555, and 560, (there were two of unknown weight, but I'm sure they were between 539 and 560). They had a variety of 'looks'. They all had the same 54-grain charge of N-135 and CCI 250 primers. Given that they were 'pushing back' almost identically to the .338 WM, I'm guessing that their MVs were in the vicinity of 1600 - 1650-ish f/s with muzzle energies in the 3400 ft-lb range. Pretty much where I want to be. There's more to this story too, but again, I'll tell that later. Let me get the target out of the way.
 
The second image is of the upper target, with groups for the 7x57 and .338 WM at 100 yds. The 3-shot group just above the lower left bulls-eye was from the 7x57 and the 162-grain BTHPs at 100 yds. The 4-shot group at the large center bulls-eye was shot with the .338 WM. Neither of these groups were particularly satisfying. My expectations from boat-tails is pretty low, so I wasn't particularly surprised. Although I did expect better than a 2-plus inch 3-shot group at 100 yds. The WM was particularly disappointing though. For years, I've shot MOA groups with this rifle and bullet. A 4-shot 2"x2" group at 100 yds is... well, disappointing. I was beginning to think that maybe it was operator error. I had been really concentrating though.
 
I figured I would go ahead and shoot the 139-grain 7x57 bullets, as I had them with me, and they had proven to be the most precise out of my wife's 7x57. You guessed it. That's the little sub-half inch 3-shot group in the upper right. :D So, the 162-grain and .338 WM groups weren't 'operator error'.:) By the way, the 139s are flat-based bullets.;)

Let me get to the 'other stories'.

First, the hand-made bullets. I wasn't particularly optimistic about finding any of the hand-made bullets in the backstop. Fist off, they were simply 'thrown together'. They didn't have any fancy 'bonding' technique applied in order to bond the core to the jacket. Also, there was a little 'lip' at the end of the jacket that I figured would catch on something and tear the jacket and core apart. And finally, the backstop is mostly sand and dirt, but there are plenty of 2"-ish rocks mixed in. Those rock would play havoc with a bullet's jakcet and core 'bond'. See pictures 3, 4 and 5. :D

I was astounded to find these bullets! As you can see, they stayed together except for the one that hit a sharp rock. I'm sold! I'm going to make more, this time concentrating on making both weight and configuration as uniform as is reasonably possible. I believe I will be able to keep the weights within half a grain. I wish I had a metal lathe at my disposal. I'd turn the belts off and trim the rims more precisely than I can do with a file and a drill press. Still, I don't think the file/drill press method will effect precision noticeably. If you want to see what the bullets looked like before they were shot, have a look at the thread titled "Big Bullets" located here: http://www.thehunterslife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6608

This post is long enough now, plus I need to post other images for the other two 'stories', so I'll end this one and put the others in subsequent posts.

Paul
Be nicer than necessary.

gitano

This falls in the category of "Don't try this at home", and "Pay attention stupid!"

Like I never have two cannisters of powder open at once on my reloading bench, I never have two kinds of ammo out on the shooting bench at the range. 'Accidents' can happen in either case.

In the above first image, you'll note 8 bullet holes in the upper center of the target, with only 7 of them attributable to the Big 51. The 8th is a .338 hole. It was poked by a .338 bullet from a MAI cartridge out of a .338 WM rifle.

I had a 'rhythm' going with respect to shooting the four rifles I had brought to the range. I bore-sighted the first. Shot a first shot. Then shot a scope adjustment shot. Then I went to the next rifle and repeated the sequence. Once all rifles were 'on target', I returned to the first rifle and shot three for-group shots. When those shots were complete, I moved the target to 50 yds and shot 3 for-group shots. However, because the MAI was removed from the cycle, the MAI ammo was still on the table when I started the 3-shot for-group shooting of the .338 WM.

There was no indication that anything was 'wrong' prior to the shot, and not much after the shot. However, I did get a little blow-back on the top of my right thumb. When it happened, I was surprised, but it was so small, that I hardly paid any attention to it. The bullet hit about half an inch high and about 2and a half inches to the right. Odd, but not freaky. Then I opened the bolt, and nothing came out. :eek: Now THAT got my undivided attention. First thought was a separated head. However, even with a complete separation, the head usually comes out with the opened bolt. Then I realized what had happened.

I was seriously concerned that I might have an MAI case stuck in my WM chamber. I got my cleaning rod out and tapped the case a couple of times and it dropped out. Whew! Big sigh of relief! The pictures tell the rest of the story. There were no adverse effects other than the destryed MAI case and a 'called flier'.

Contrary to the prevailing winds, I don't get too excited about separated heads and other case failures. It is only in the most extraordinary circumstances that these lead to catastrophe, and frankly, I can't remember hearing of a credible catastrophe from a separated head. That's not to say I take what happened lightly. Quite the contrary. However, my concern is far more for my not paying attention to detail than it is about component failure. Separated heads and other case failures rarely lead to catastrophe... not paying attention to detail USUALLY leads to catstrophe! And catstrophe usually hurts.

Paul
Be nicer than necessary.

drinksgin (deceased)

2 hours in detention hall for you!
:D
Still have not said what you are going meese hunting with.
NRA life, TSRA life, SAF life, GOA, CCRKBA, DEF -CON

gitano

That's because I haven't decided yet. :) One of the banes of having plenty of guns to choose from is having too many guns to choose from. Which would you take... the precise but 'sissy' 7mm, or the coarse but 'authoritative' Win Mag? I'm still trying to figure out how to get the Big 51 field-ready. 18 hours 'til departure.
 
Paul
Be nicer than necessary.

Nelsdou

I say double secret probation!:rolleyes:

What kind of brass are the "fire-formed" cases?  

Seriously though, the cartridges appear to show good ductility and toughness for being unrestrained about it's radial exterior.  Better that than a head separation.

Nels
Put it into perspective; we live on a rock hurtling through space, what could be scarier than that?

drinksgin (deceased)

:D Simple, stay awake working on the .51 for the next 18 hours, then go and fall asleep while waiting for the moose and wake up to steaming moose sign 20 feet away and no moose in sight!
NRA life, TSRA life, SAF life, GOA, CCRKBA, DEF -CON

gitano

Quote from: NelsdouWhat kind of brass are the "fire-formed" cases?
 
Nels

Remington Peters. Just so there's no confusion regarding "cases"... I only did it once. ;)
 
You didn't answer the question, Don. ;)
 
Paul
Be nicer than necessary.

drinksgin (deceased)

NRA life, TSRA life, SAF life, GOA, CCRKBA, DEF -CON

Hunterbug

That case is kind of scary looking. I am glad that everything was ok. You already know my vote as to what rifle to take. Playing is fine but when it seriously comes time to put meat in the freezer then it's 338 Win Mag time. But my view may be just a tad biased. ;)
Ask not what your government can do for you. Ask how your government can go away and get out of your life.
 
 
The unarmed man is is not only defenseless, he is also contemptible.
Niccolo Machiavelli

sakorick

Hello Paul. I would not hesitate on the 7mm, however, having said that, I would grab the 338 if I had one! I am building a 35 Whelen AI specifically for Moose if I ever draw one.....shoot, my old 98 Mauser Preduzece shoots great with the 200gr Nosler partition for that matter and with the original military sights' I shoot 4 inch groups with the darn thing at 200 yards! I'm suprised you didn't consider one of your 8mm's. Good luck and regards, Rick.
Talk to yourself. There are times you need expert advice.

gitano

Quote from: sakorickI'm suprised you didn't consider one of your 8mm's.

Rick, I do have many rifles chambered in 8x57, AND I do love that cartridge, but only one of my 8mm rifles is configured as a 'hunting rifle'. It is a pre-WWII M98 converted to sporter by, (if I remember correctly), a Swiss gunsmith. I took the 'scope off that rifle because I wanted to hunt it with open sights. In the locale this moose hunt took place, shots out to 250+ yds were a possibility, and while 250-yd shots with open sights aren't out of the realm of possible shots I would take at a moose, I haven't had a chance to get to know that rifle with open sights. The rest of my 8x57s are the various European military surplus arms, not particularly suitable for this hunt in their military configuration... their military configuration would suffice in a pinch, but again, I really don't 'know' any of these rifles.
 
The 8x56R M-95 Steyr would have been 'a contender' for this hunt, but the scout-type 'scope mount is a bit wimpy due to the weak rear ramp. This was a lowland hunt, meaning lots of very dense alder and willow thickets. I wouldn't have had sufficient confidence that the 'scope mount could have taken the abuse of long boat-rides and substantial brush-beating and stayed 'on target'. The 8x56R is likely to be relegated to an open-country caribou rifle, or I will have to come up with a more substantial 'scope mount.
 
The choice between the 7x57 and the .338 WM was a tough one. I am far more confident in a rifle that makes very prcise holes than one that simply shoots 'big around' bullets. But in the end, I had confidence in the .338 WM that I did't in the Ruger #1 RSI in 7x57. In the end it was a moot point, as we didn't see any shootable moose.
 
Now I've got two questions for you...
 
First, do you hunt with that k-98 as configured in that picture? I'll be surprised to find out it is so, because you so often mention the long shots - 300+ yds - that present themselves at your place. And...
 
You mentioned last winter/spring that you were going to get after a deer with your Steyr. Is that still in the works? I'm keenly interested in seeing someone kill something with an M-95 Steyr, and the way things are going, it doesn't look like mine will be 'blooded' this season.
 
Paul
Be nicer than necessary.

sakorick

Hello Paul. Did you get your Moose?
 
The Steyr is a problem in that it shoots 12 inches high at 100 yards. I just can't see trying to hold under a deer that low. I have thought about putting some kind of sleeve on the front sight but have had no brainstorms to date.:confused:
 
I plan on hunting with the Preduzece on an out of the way portion of the farm which is only a small 4 acre field between ditches....the max shot is about 80 yards. I have 100% confidence in placing the shot with the 8mm. Having said that, it shoots about 3 inches left at 100 yards and I would like to get that corrected.....any easy way?? Regards, Rick.
Talk to yourself. There are times you need expert advice.

sakorick

#12
All.....Where would be a good place to look for a M98 military sling? There are so many repros out there I'm at sea. There are a few on Ebay some are outrageous. Sarco lists them for around 14 dollars which sounds too cheap. Regards, Rick.
Talk to yourself. There are times you need expert advice.

gitano

#13
Quote from: sakorickHello Paul. Did you get your Moose? Nope. Didn't even see a shootable one.
 
The Steyr is a problem in that it shoots 12 inches high at 100 yards. I just can't see trying to hold under a deer that low. I have thought about putting some kind of sleeve on the front sight but have had no brainstorms to date.:confused: Have you tried the lowest rear "V"? This "V" is not the one you see with the ladder down. In order to see this lowest "V" you must first raise the ladder, then raise the cross-piece as if you were going to shoot at 2000 yds. At the bottom of the raised ladder is a small "V". Using this "V" you should be no more than 3" high at 100 yds, and you will probably be even closer.
 
I plan on hunting with the Preduzece on an out of the way portion of the farm which is only a small 4 acre field between ditches....the max shot is about 80 yards. I have 100% confidence in placing the shot with the 8mm. Having said that, it shoots about 3 inches left at 100 yards and I would like to get that corrected.....any easy way?? There is a front sight adjustment vice just for this purpose. I'll find a source and post the URL. Regards, Rick.

Paul

Try this place: http://www.surplusrifle.com/reviews/lt2/index.asp I'm pretty sure he has one.

Paul
Be nicer than necessary.

sakorick

Hello Paul. Yes, I used the bottom vee under the ladder.....shoots 12 inches high. If you aim at the bull, she is off the paper. Maybe I need to download the thing to around 2200'/sec?????? Regards, Rick.
Talk to yourself. There are times you need expert advice.

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