I got word that the caribou were in the “right” place, so I’m headed out Monday morning. While I was trying to choose which rifles to take, I kept coming back to the M-95 Steyr. I just like that 205-grain .330” bullet doing about 2400 f/s. I like the carbine too. Problem was, between the milsurp sights and my eyesight, the gun was not exactly a “caribou rifle”. I really needed a scope mounted on it. I will not however, ruin the “historical accuracy” of a milsurp just to accommodate my eyesight.
 

 
B-Square and a couple of others are making ‘scope adapters that fit on the rear sights of milsurps, replacing the rear leaf. As far as I know, they are currently only made for Mosin Nagants, a few Mauser variations and the Swiss K-31. No one I know of is making a “scout-type” adapter base for the M-95 though. The M-95 base is pretty ‘wimpy’ compared to the MN, Mauser or K-31, and I wasn’t sure if the M-95 base would even accommodate a ‘scout-type adapter. However, this rifle was never going to make it hunting with me if it didn’t get some better sights. A scout-type mount was the only option if the historical integrity of the rifle was to remain intact.
 

 
A couple of years back, I bought at auction a B-Square adapter supposedly for a MN of the M38 or M44 variety. It was very disappointing. I found Darrell’s Scout Mounts, and have never considered another B-Square. That left the B-Square collecting dust. After lots of ‘looking’ and some measuring, I thought I just might be able to modify the B-Square base to work on the M-95. The base would have to be narrowed by about 0.215”, a hole for the leaf retaining pin drilled, and a new hole for one of the setscrews would have to be drilled and tapped at 1/4x28. I would have preferred that the work be accomplished by a machinist, but, considering that today is Friday, there was no way that was going to happen by Monday early. If the M-95 was going with me after caribou, I’d have to “fix” it myself.
 

 
I have no metalworking machinery, but I do have a drill press and a bench grinder. I figured I could grind the sides of the base with the grinder. Drilling and tapping the holes was not a challenge. The aluminum of the adapter loaded the grinding wheel pretty fast, but I was able to get close enough to start hand filing in about 45 minutes. The hand fitting only took about 10 minutes. Drilling and tapping the holes took about the same. A little careful filing to get the alignment just right, and it was time to mount the ‘scope. The only LER ‘scope I have available was a pistol ‘scope, with emphasis on long eye relief. That’s why the ‘scope is so far forward as you will see in the pictures.
 

 
So configured, I’m sure the rifle is capable of being effective out to at least 300 yds. I won’t be shooting beyond 200, and unlikely farther than 150. I’ll take it to the range tomorrow and get it sighted in. For those with M-95s, this was an easy affair. If you want to ‘scope your rifle and still retain it historical accuracy, this is a reasonable solution.
 

 
Paul

Paul;

I made a "milling machine " of my drill press by buying an 'X'- 'Y' drill press vise for about $40 from Harbor Freight and using a 1/2", carbide tipped router dovetail bit for a surfacing bit and a 1/2" straight carbide tipped router bit for an edge bit, in aluminum or brass these do nicely with no lubrication other than a touch of bee's wax.
Glad to hear you have a scope on it, military sights are not very good for kids, let alone "Mature Gentlemen"
Happy caribou culling, and make sure you add some of my pepper to the sausage!
Don  :D

Paul, looks good.  Good luck on your caribou hunt.  I'd like to try some caribou steaks someday...HINT HINT!! :-)
 
Don, I have been wondering about doing something similar.  In fact I began looking at elcheapo mills in Harbor Freight and decided they were still out of my price range.  I may be trying your idea this winter when the snow gets too deep to hunt in.
 
Mike

Don,
 
I've given that some thought, but obviously it was not particularly an option for me this weekend. Actually, the "thought I've given" to the subject is "Why isn't a drill press a head for a milling machine." It seemed to me that the addition of an "X-Y" table to the press pretty much makes a mill. However, what I don't know about metalwork would fill volumes, so I was never particularly motivated to pursue an answer. Seems you've answered it. For that matter, why isn't a router a proper milling head? Look at the following site and consider what you could do to a bbl with the Legacy. I have been using one for about 5 years. If I could do with a bbl what I do to stair ballusters, mmm, mmm, mmm.
 
http://www.legacywoodworking.com
 
Paul

Paul,

 
You done good, my friend!  You are living proof of the ol' adage..."Necessity is the mother of invention!!".
 
Now if the caribou will just co-operate!  Go gett'um!!
 
Ol' John

Quote from: gitanoDon, I've given that some thought, but obviously it was not particularly an option for me this weekend. Actually, the "thought I've given" to the subject is "Why isn't a drill press a head for a milling machine." It seemed to me that the addition of an "X-Y" table to the press pretty much makes a mill.

[/size]

Well...you'll note that Don spoke to 'aluminum or brass' which is light milling.  And a drill press would work OK if it was a good drill press.  The problem will always be in the bearings.  A drill press was designed to operate on the 'Z' axis and the bearings were designed for that purpose.  Now you're asking it to go in the  'X' 'Y' directions.  Hard on the bearings in steel.

The 'X' 'Y' vise for drill presses works very well for precision drilling...some even are mounted on a base that allows it to be precisely rotated by degrees.  Some drill press tables are even equiped with a handle and track to move the table up and down...but there is no dial for the table travel in the 'Z' direction.  There is a dial on the spindle but it is not very precise...usually.  You can mount a dial indicator but it is a lot of trouble.

Expensive mills will usually have a drill press feature (that locks in place) instead of having to unlock and move the table all the time.  For boring on a mill this works pretty good...especially if you have power to the head for moving the spindle up and down.

You're right about the router having the correct bearing for sideways movement but there is something else to consider.  The speed that you turn any particular size cutter (milling cutter) is not always the same.  Speed and feed is something that you have to learn when using a mill.

One other consideration...aluminum and brass.  These metals are sticky and tend to catch cutters unless the aluminum and/or brass is securely held.  It is very dangerous to hand hold these items with milling cutters nearby.

Many folks have never seen a real mill cutter or understand that they are razor sharp.  You can cut you hand just holding one by the flutes.  Even after milling quite a bit of steel this is true.  The carbide cutter inserts don't seem to be the same but any HSS or Cobalt cutter can be dangerous for the uninitiated.

Hi All,
 
     For light milling work a drill press can be fine, however I would suggest the use of 3 fluted Slot drills. These can be used for face cutting and of curse side milling and are availbe in High speed steel and carbide. One of the limitations with using the drill press is holding the cutters in the 3 jaw drill chuck. This does not always run as true as we would like and offers no secure retention of the cutter unlike a proper milling holder. Which is why most slot drills have threaded shanks.

Of course a drill press is not a milling machine, but a decent one, mine has a 3 1/2" column and a 2" quill with an adjustable stop, can do some light jobs for the hobbiest with out spending $700-1200 for minimum in a decent milling machine.

Yes, aluminum and brass are very sticky, I keep a bar of bee's wax and wipe the bit each pass, a crayon will also work.
Some places have combo machines for $1100 -1500, but I would be wary of the quality of some of them.

Don

Jay,

Your points are well-taken. My thinking was that the primary differences between a mill head and a drill head would be in 1) the "run-out" in the bearings, particularly since they were not designed for "X-Y" forces, and 2) longevity of the bearings, again because they weren't designed for lateral forces.
 
Regarding the router as a potential metal working mill head (it is indeed a mill head, just one designed for hand-held wood working), all of the ones I own are variable speed. Therefore, cutter rotation speed can be controlled at least to some degree. If they can be slowed enough, I don't know. Using the Legacy Ornamental Mill was my way of dealing with 1) securing (as opposed to hand-holding the milled object), and 2) controlling feed rate. Depth of cut seems obvious.
 
Aren't feed-rates, cutter speeds, and depth of cut for each common type of metal spec'd in engineering and machine texts?
 
I'm really not trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear here. I'm just trying to "get something done" without having to invest $20,000 in machinery and spending several years as a machine apprentice.
 
Paul

Don's last post goes right to the heart of the matter whether you're picking out a milling machine or using a heavy duty drill press.  Rigidity is critical (and 'run out' is important as well) when you are milling.  Vibrations can cause chatter which can cause an uneven surface or false reading.  So his 3 1/2" column is a plus.

Feeds For High Speed Cutters:
SAE6470 high-speed steel...40-50 fpm
SAE1095 tool steel..............60-80
Sae 1015 machine steel.......80-100
Cast Iron............................80-100
Brass..................................150-200

I'm attaching a chart for cutting speeds but, unless you're working off a blueprint, you just learn about speeds and feeds.  Sometimes you can tell from the chips and their color and sometimes you shoot for a finish.  Working with ceramic or carbide cutters is good for some steels/finishes...sometimes diamond cutters are best.  The Machinist's Handbook can be a help here.[/color]

Depth of cut can be tricky when working with tempered steel or even with case hardened steel...depending on cutter diameter.  Anyone that has broken a flute(s) on a dovetail cutter can attest to the problem of a too fast feed.

My mill is a small tool room job that I picked instead of a larger mill.  First of all, it converts from vertical to horizontal.  Second, it has power on the 'X' axis with an automatic shut off.  Third, it has a slotting head. Fourth, it sits on it's own stand and has 'X', 'Y' & 'Z'.  Fifth, it cost me an even $1000 with a number of horizontal cutters thrown in.  Last, it weighs less than 1000 lbs so I can move it myself...and have done so a number of times.
My good drill press sits on a bench and used for nothing but drilling.  My floor drill press was given to me in trade and works for rough work as the fellow who gave it to me had used it for some light milling before getting his own mill.

I really don't want to discourage anyone from using their equipment as they see fit as I would bridle up if anyone tried to tell me what to  do.  In addition...I'm not the last word in machining as there are plenty who know a lot more than me.  Getting a job done, being satisfied with the end result and creating a product that gives pleasure should be the aim of every home gunsmith.  I'm pleased to see you fellas solving the problems and introducing milsurps into the hunting fields.  Please post pictures of your projects so that the rest of us can enjoy them.

I went to the range today to sight-in the newly 'scoped Steyr. Here are the 100 yd targets. I gave the cast bullets one more try. The verdict is in; I will not be using cast bullets in the Steyr.

An interesting thing happened to me today, something I have never even heard of I don't think. I squeezeded the trigger on the Steyr and got just a "click". Now that in itself is not novel, however, when I extracted the case, no bullet came with it, the powder was up flush with the mouth, and the primer had been detonated. Sho 'nuff, the bullet was stuck in the muzzle. Now I've had duds before, and I've heard of folks loading cases with no powder and having the primer drive the bullet into the bore, but I've never heard of a primer going off but the powder not burning. Maybe some of you have. The powder was Vihtavouri N150. I'll be letting them know. Of the remaining four cast bullet shots, you can see how three of them did at 100 yds. Only God knows where the fourth hit.

I was trying out three separate loads for the Hornady 205; 51.5, 52.5, and 53.5 grains of H4350. As you can see from the targets, there's not any practical difference between the three loads. However, of more inportance to me is the pressures of the loads relative to the nazi milsurp "standard". On an "average" summer day, the average pressure of the milsurp ammo is 39,515 PSI. Today, it was cold, about 25 F. The milsurp average pressure was 37,474 PSI. Almost exactly a 2,000 PSI drop. The average pressure of the 53.5 grain load was 27,5??. Almost exactly 10,000 PSI less than the "standard". The average muzzle velocity of the milsurp standard in summer was 2434 fps. The sun is low this time of year up here, and the chronograph was only catching some of the shots. Unfortuntely, it got none of the milsurp shots. The 53.5 grain loads yielded an averag muzzle velocity of 2119 fps. Considering the 10,00 PSI "available", I think I should be able to get the Hornadys up to 2450 fps.

I'll be taking the Steyr with me tomorrow after caribou. I am very pessimistic about recovering a bullet though, unless the shot is well over 200 yds. However, considering these targets, I have considerable confidence in the rifle to put it where I point it.

The first picture is of two 5-shot "groups". The string that moves from left to right is of the initial milsurp shots used to check pressure and adjust the scope. (The base needed to "settle in" a bit too.) The tight group is the Hawk custom 200s with a charge of 52.5 grains of H4350. (I won't be using those bullets either.)

The second picture is of the Hornady 205s with 51.5 grains of H4350.

The third picture is of the Hornady 205s with both the 52.5 and the 53.5 loads. There are 10 bullet holes in this picture.

The fourth picture is of the three cast bullets that actually hit the paper.

Paul

By the way, a man next to me was shooting a very nicely outfitted 17 HMR, replete with laminated stock, and Leupold 'scope. The absolute best group he shot after going through two full boxes of ammo, was about 4" at 100 yds. I now have two personal, eye-witness accounts - mine and this fellow's - of the "awsome" accuracy of the .17 HMR.

Pretty interesting work there Paul...looks like the Steyr can get the job done.  Have you worked out your MRT?/size]

Too bad about the cast bullets.  However, for close range small game and bird shooting during a hunt, mighten they be of value?  I've always enjoyed being able to do a low velocity, low report head shot on grouse while hunting when I need a break.

Paul,
 
WOW!   DOUBLE WOW!
 
That is pretty dog-gone good, no--excellent, accuracy from an issue milsurp!
 
Now there will be caribou steaks in the freezer and on the table providing----you are up to the task!
 
I am sure the family will be enjoying caribou steaks well into the summer.  Just a feeling I have!
 
Ol' John

Paul, I did have similar experiences last Winter with RL powders in the 300RUM. Granted, t'was in the single digit temps, and with standard LR primers. I did NOT have a bullet leave it's case, however.
 
Funny color change in the powder, eh'? Kinda scorched looking....
 
Robie

I had a "funny" one a couple of weeks ago, I was working on a slug load in 20ga., had 40gr 4227 in the case, when I pulled the trigger, it went phuft, I opened the gun and the case came out, dribbled unburnt powder all over, looked in case, a wedge shaped blob of firm ash was in the base, the slug was 1/2 way down the barrel, never seen 4227 not go off, still trying to figure this one out.

Don:confused: