OK all,
 
In the discussion under the 30-06, we got quite involved in discussions on comparisons between cartridges.
 
We have agreed that people who "blow" the capabilities of a cartridge out of proportion is what "bugs" us (some of us). Now my experience is that it is as common among the Magnum crowd as it is among the shooters of other calibres. I therefore want to throw in the OTHER side of the coin.
 
Lets stick with the 30-06 / 300 Win Mag comparison and stay with "Factory" specs (i.e. 180gr @ 2700 & 2950ft/s respectively).
 
 
With a bullet with a BC of .45, the 30-06 if zeroed at 255 yards will have a highest point in its trajectory of 4 inches and it will be 4 inches low at 300 yards. (i.e. a 300 yard point blank range for an 8 inch taget area).
 
Now here is the question that often confounds the Magnum owners. If the point blank range for the 30-06 is 300 yards, what would be the point blank range for the 300 Win Mag under the same conditions? I am not going to give the answer, I would like some of the forum members to Guess (don't cheat by working it out on your ballistics calculator). Lets see what kind of answers we get.
 
Once we have some samples, we can then take the discussion forward again (say after the weekend).
 
Oh, and while we're at it, lets not stay with these two, lets add a serious MAGNUM.  Lets say you can throw that 180gr bullet at 3200ft/s, what would be the 8" point blank range now? At the other end, you have a 300 Savage at (say) 2500ft/s.
 
Just copy the following table into your post and insert your values:
 
8 inch point blank ranges (180gr, .45 BC)
300 Savage (2500ft/s)?
30-06 (2700ft/s)                300 Yards.
300 Win Mag (2950ft/s)?
300 RUM (3200ft/s)?
 
Have fun.
 
Regards.
 
C

Without calculating, I'd imagine PBR for the WinMag, and the values stated, would be in the mid to lower 320 yd. range. Say somewhere between 318 and 325 yds.
 
Now I gotta go see.
 
 
 
Just reread my post and see I didn't follow directions  ;o)  .  Whoops.  Here goes :
 
8 inch point blank ranges (180gr, .45 BC)
300 Savage (2500ft/s)?  low 280's
30-06 (2700ft/s) 300 Yards.
300 Win Mag (2950ft/s)?  mid to lower 320's
300 RUM (3200ft/s)?  mid to upper 340's

7.82 Warbird (3500fps)  lower 380's

NOW, I gotta go see.  >> klallen

It looks to me like Klallen is right about on where I was thinking....

I'll second his opinion.

Rockinbbar

Since we are talking about PBR only this seems like a fairly simple guess. Most of the variables have been kept constant except velocity. Based on the 30-06 at 300 yards I estimate the following.
 
8 inch point blank ranges (180 gr, .45 BC)
 
300 Savage at 2500 fps = PBR app. 280 yards
30-06 at 2700 fps = PBR app. 300 yards
300 Win mag 2950 fps = PBR app. 330 yards
300 RUM 3200 fps = PBR app. 360 yards
7.82 Warbird 3500 fps = PBR app. 390 yards
 
I think I am close, but now I gotta go check too.

C;
Why not include the lowly .30-30, a Savage '99 or 340 which can use the 180 bullet you are useing for the example, can develop at least 2250 fps with Reloder 15.
Don

30-30 at 2250 fps. = PBR approx 250 yards

OK Guys, seems there is no fooling you. Here are the figures according to my ballistics calculator (rounded to the nearest 5 yards), those guesses were therefore right on the money, good for you!!!
 
8 inch point blank ranges (180 gr, .45 BC)


30-30 at 2250fps =           255 Yards
300 Savage at 2500 fps = 275 yards
30-06 at 2700 fps =          300 yards
300 Win mag 2950 fps =   325 yards
300 RUM 3200 fps =          350 yards
7.82 Warbird 3500 fps =   380 yards

It has been my experience that the average shooter (and I know that in this forum I am not working with the average shooter), has a totally distorted perception of the "flatshooting" capability of the magnums. I have often asked this same question  around the campfire and the usual response will have the 300 Win Mag shooting 50 to 100 yards FURTHER than the 30-06 and something like a 300 RUM 200 yards or more.

When you look at the true values, we come back to those people who claim thay don't need more than a 30-06 (or whatever) for their hunting needs.  Is it worth it to put up with the extra recoil (and all the other attandant side effects) of a 300 Win Mag for JUST 25 yards extra Point Blank Range (or 50 yards over a lovely light recoiling rifle like a 300 Savage)?

And this is why the "standard" calibres still have such huge support in the shooting world. My experience is that more than 90% of all hunting takes place at ranges of less than 200 yards and for that, even the mildest of calibres will do the job. That is why calibres such as the 308, 303, 7x57 and even the 30-30 see such wide useage.

Now I know that those who support the "Large energy transfer" as the most effective means of killing the quarry are already gnashing their teeth and also those who regularly do beanfield type long range shooting (or any long range shooting from a hide for instance).

For the "walk & stalk" hunter, who has to rely on shooting from a field position, those long shots are just not on, even if the rifle is capable of it.

Now lets hear the responses.

Regards.

C

CAfrica, I have no response other than to agree with you 100%.

I am devastated that the .308 Winshester was not included in the analysis. :)
 
Paul

Quote from: gitanoI am devastated that the .308 Winshester was not included in the analysis. :)
 
Paul

Me too, amigo! "I SAY-I SAY.....TAR & FEATHER THE RAPSCALLIONS!!!" "COAT THEM WITH MOLASSES AND STAKE 'UM ON THE NEAREST ANT HILL!!!"
 
But......perhaps I am becoming a little carried away!
 
Ol' John...:D :D :D :frown

Considering the gravity of the injustice perpetrated, I think your response is 'tame', John.
 
Paul

You will get no arguments from me.  I like to shoot the old faithfuls and the lightening bolts.  I don't ever remember shooting a three zero uh what was that again.  I have come to use the 7MM STW as a mule deer rifle due to the fact that if I am going to take a shot at an animal over 300 yards, I will do the best I can to place that bullet where it needs to be and in a timely fashion.  From an energy perspective it is over kill.  From a recoil perspective, I don't really notice much difference.  Since the rifle will shoot under two inches at 300 yards I have great conficence to use it.  If the truth were know two of my favorite calibers to shoot are the 338 win mag and the 35 whelen.  Not exactly lightening bolts, but they do work very effectively.

.338 - Nowyurtawkin'.
 
Paul

Gitano, John,
 
My abject apologies.   I specifically chose the 300 Savage as the "mild" calibre because it is even milder then the 308.  However, the 2500ft/s muzzle velocity is so close to that of factory spec 308's that the information would be interchangeable. (since the 300 Savage is mostly loaded with roundnose or flatnose bullets for the lever action rifles, the value is probably more appropriate to the 308 which would be loaded with spitsers (to reflect the high 0.45 BC)).
 
I would say however, that the 308, 300 Savage and even the 303 British would all be within a couple of yards of each other (PBR) and therefore for purposes of THIS avaluation, they are the same!
 
Regards
 
C

QuoteI would say however, that the 308, 300 Savage and even the 303 British would all be within a couple of yards of each other (PBR) and therefore for purposes of THIS avaluation, they are the same!

GASP!
 
I'm comin' 'Lizbeth!
 
(A little Redd Foxx retro-humour.)