Just read a write up on this cartridge.  I know it's been out a year but I never really paid any attention to it.  Is it just me or does this caliber seem like the perfect mate to the .308 case?  I don't need it.  Probably will never own it.  But if I was somewhere where Elk or Moose were in the mix I believe I'd be looking for one.  
 
Sorry just a little rambling.
 
Mike

Morning ENGLISH  >>  Held a new Ruger M77 Hawkeye chambered in .338 Federal yesterday.  Actually, the rifle's been on the shelf a long time and I've oggled it quite a bit.  Not quite ready to drop $580 on it though.  I had never taken the time in the past to look at the cartridge first hand so I went over to the factory ammo racks for a look-see.  I don't know.  I guess with the 180 gr. AccuBond it'd be a neat little close range number but loaded with the 200 - 210 gr. bullets, I just couldn't help but think that was an aweful small case for that long a bullet.  I typically tend towards the larger stuff but must admit to at least a passing interest in the rifle (and this round).  Later.  >>  klallen

It would be cool to get a Rossi or Baikal or H&R/NEF in 308 and have the barrel bored out to 338 so you could ream it to 338 Fed.
As kallen said, it's no long distance number, but it could be fun.
Problem is, I get the feeling that my 8x57 Mauser would have better penetration.

Quote from: kombi1976;60619It would be cool to get a Rossi or Baikal or H&R/NEF in 308 and have the barrel bored out to 338 so you could ream it to 338 Fed.
As kallen said, it's no long distance number, but it could be fun.
Problem is, I get the feeling that my 8x57 Mauser would have better penetration.

Yep, me too. Only I was thinking '06 and you were thinking Mauser. Why do things 100 years old work as good or better than things dreamed up yesterday? Regards, Rick.

I didnt' say it would do anything better. My comment was directed at the cartridge's efficiency and ability. It wouldn't make a 300 yard Elk gun...but neither is the 30-30 a 300 yard deer gun. This cartride has a good knockdown to recoil ratio. I guess what I'm saying is that is seems like a well thought out, practical, utilitarian cartridge. I dunno...maybe I"m just rambling a bit.
 
Mike

Quote from: sakorick;60653Yep, me too. Only I was thinking '06 and you were thinking Mauser. Why do things 100 years old work as good or better than things dreamed up yesterday? Regards, Rick.

Ummm.....maybe because of a desperate lack of imagination, a failure to properly identify any missed gaps in the designs already existing and mostly because it's all been done before.
Oh, and because of a tendency of the big companies to hedge their bets and reduce the risk of failure all the way to boredom!
It's my opinion that instead of re-inventing the wheel constantly companies should be trying to maximise the effectiveness of pre-existing designs.
There are plenty that the are well out of patent and are in the public domain.
This whole idea of the 338 Fed being good with 180gn bullets.....it's nuts!
Why aren't they designing a good .311 bullet to maximise 2 excellent designs.
The 303 deserves some benefit from new bullet design as does the 7.62x54R.
Why are they still millions of SMLEs out there and heaps of SVTs and Mosins and yet no major US company designs a premium bullet for them?
Woodleigh in Australia and GS Custom in South Africa do but everyone else is happily ignoring that sector of the market.
How about a .311" cal 150gn or 170gn Ballistic Tip or Accubond or SST or TSX?
Better still, how about a 215gn Spitzer or SPBT in .311"?
Furthermore, why aren't companies like H&R/NEF chambering these 2 potent rounds?
And then there's the 8mm 130gn(?) HPBT solid copper bullet being designed in Germany.
I've seen pics of what it does to wild boar......it isn't nice!
Why aren't people designing streamlined 150gn controlled expansion 8mm bullets for the 8x57?
Everyone agrees it's equal to the 308 Win and it uses those sort of weights.
140gn is well enough for a 7mm-08 or a 260 Rem, the new "magic rounds", to knock over deer.
Why is it we need another 40 to 50 grains in an 8mm?
Haven't we learnt SOMETHING about ballistics and aerodynamics since spitzers were first invented?
The most exciting ideas I've seen recently are ones that give people sensible alternatives.
Like 375 Ruger......375 H&H in a standard length action with less brass stretching.
I can see a big future for that case in various wildcats.
In fact a 366/375 Ruger would be quite fun.........:smiley:
Then there's the series of WSM bigbore wildcats designed by 2 gunsmiths here in Oz in 375, 416, 404 and 458 cals.
They practically duplicate the H&H, Rigby, Jeffery and Win Mag performance loaded to around 40k psi for safe use in Africa like the original cartridges.
I know no one has to justify the purchase of a new gun and that manufacturers need to make money but I can't help thinking that there's more than one way to skin a cat.

....Kombi, you just answered your own question. They do not want millions more guns flooding the lucrative market. They want them to go away and die-lol.......

I'm afraid I have to disagree on several counts.
 

QuoteUmmm.....maybe because of a desperate lack of imagination, a failure to properly identify any missed gaps in the designs already existing and mostly because it's all been done before. Aren't those contradictory statements? If there are "missing gaps", then it all hasn't "been done before". If it all "has been done before", then there wouldn't be missing gaps.
 
Oh, and because of a tendency of the big companies to hedge their bets and reduce the risk of failure all the way to boredom! And when they don't "hedge thier bets", they go away, like Remington and Winchester/USRAC.
 
It's my opinion that instead of re-inventing the wheel constantly companies should be trying to maximise the effectiveness of pre-existing designs. Whenever someone suggests "improving" on an "existing design", the traditionalist start howling about how you can't improve on a 100-year-old design, and "they're just reinventing the wheel".
 
There are plenty that the are well out of patent and are in the public domain.
This whole idea of the 338 Fed being good with 180gn bullets.....it's nuts! We disagree on "it's nuts". However, I certainly would like to see some lighter bullets in .338, even down to 125-ish.
 
Why aren't they designing a good .311 bullet to maximise 2 excellent designs. Market.
 
The 303 deserves some benefit from new bullet design as does the 7.62x54R.
Why are they still millions of SMLEs out there and heaps of SVTs and Mosins and yet no major US company designs a premium bullet for them? Because they don't sell in the US market. Neither the guns nor the reloading components. And when they don't sell, and the manufacturer keeps making them for the few of us that do buy them, they go out of business, and are called "poor managers". See topics on Remington's recent demise.
 
Woodleigh in Australia and GS Custom in South Africa do but everyone else is happily ignoring that sector of the market. Woodleigh and GS Custom exist in a viable marketplace for .311 bullets. How come GS Custom isn't offering their bullets Stateside? Why do I have to take out a second mortgage to buy Woodliegh bullets in the States? It's about market and profitability.
 
How about a .311" cal 150gn or 170gn Ballistic Tip or Accubond or SST or TSX?
Better still, how about a 215gn Spitzer or SPBT in .311"? A 215 in the .303(?), but a 180 is too big for a .338???
 
Furthermore, why aren't companies like H&R/NEF chambering these 2 potent rounds? Becuase there's no profitable US market for those chamberings.
 
And then there's the 8mm 130gn(?) HPBT solid copper bullet being designed in Germany.
I've seen pics of what it does to wild boar......it isn't nice! The 8mm is the consummate German caliber. On the other hand, 8mm sales in the US are paltry at best. We're back to market. Consider the 8mm Rem Mag - an outstanding cartridge, that essentially failed commercially. And then Remington is accused of being "poorly managed" when they keep making them for those that understand that there's more to ballistics than what gunwriters - ptooey - spew.
 
Why aren't people designing streamlined 150gn controlled expansion 8mm bullets for the 8x57? I assume that by "people" you're referring to "US people", since I think GS Custom has one, and you just said there is a German 130 that "isn't nice" to wild boar. The 150-grain Remington Core Lokt is a "controlled expansion" bullet, shoots like a house-afire, and has been around for a very long time. True it isn't a boat-tail, but then sime of us don't particulary like boat-tails. And what about "re-inventing the wheel"?
 
Everyone agrees it's equal to the 308 Win and it uses those sort of weights. I most vigorously disagree here. The 8x57 is considerably superior to the .308 Win, in every measure of ballistic performance. And I say that even though I consider the .308 Winchester to be one of the best hunting cartridges ever designed.
 
140gn is well enough for a 7mm-08 or a 260 Rem, the new "magic rounds", to knock over deer.
Why is it we need another 40 to 50 grains in an 8mm? Because there are mountains of hunters "out there" that believe that "heavier is better". Why were you asking for a 215 in the .311, when a 180 in a .338 was "nuts"?
 
Haven't we learnt SOMETHING about ballistics and aerodynamics since spitzers were first invented? Not so much as to make much difference in terminal performance.
 
The most exciting ideas I've seen recently are ones that give people sensible alternatives.
Like 375 Ruger......375 H&H in a standard length action with less brass stretching.
I can see a big future for that case in various wildcats.
In fact a 366/375 Ruger would be quite fun.........:smiley:
Then there's the series of WSM bigbore wildcats designed by 2 gunsmiths here in Oz in 375, 416, 404 and 458 cals.
They practically duplicate the H&H, Rigby, Jeffery and Win Mag performance loaded to around 40k psi for safe use in Africa like the original cartridges.
I know no one has to justify the purchase of a new gun and that manufacturers need to make money but I can't help thinking that there's more than one way to skin a cat. However, when someone comes up with a new way to "skin a cat", they are accused of "reinventing the wheel".

We have a vigorous and viable firearms industry. We're complaining about lack of choices when in fact, we have an "embarrassment of riches". Never in firearms history have there been so many choices of calibers, cartridges, bullets and arms.
 
Personally, I'm fine with the .338 Winchester... oh yeah, I mean Federal ..... even with 180s.
 
Paul

I just "ran some numbers" through QuickLoad on the .338 Federal using a 180-grain Accubond and a 26" barrel.
 
 
47.75 grains of Win 748 produces:
MV = 2840 f/s
ME = 3222 ft-lbs
 
100yd energy = 2740 ft-lbs
100yd trajectory for a 6" target is +2.7"
 
200yd energy = 2317 ft-lbs
200yd trajectory = +1.9"
 
300yd energy = 1947 ft-lbs
300yd trajectory = -5.0"
 
At almost 2000 ft-lbs of energy and only 5 inches low at 300 yds, it certainly looks like a "300 yard elk rifle" to me.
 
Paul

Quote from: gitano;61371I just "ran some numbers" through QuickLoad on the .338 Federal using a 180-grain Accubond and a 26" barrel.
 
 
47.75 grains of Win 748 produces:
MV = 2840 f/s
ME = 3222 ft-lbs
 
100yd energy = 2740 ft-lbs
100yd trajectory for a 6" target is +2.7"
 
200yd energy = 2317 ft-lbs
200yd trajectory = +1.9"
 
300yd energy = 1947 ft-lbs
300yd trajectory = -5.0"
 
At almost 2000 ft-lbs of energy and only 5 inches low at 300 yds, it certainly looks like a "300 yard elk rifle" to me.
 
Paul

Far be it for me to want to rain on anyone's parade, however, unless I'm reading the tea leaves wrong, the Federal is a "non-starter".

Okay now look at the 35 Whelen/Ackley:

225gr Nosler BT at 2700'/sec give or take..

BC= .412, zero at 250 yards...,.

@ 100 yards, + 3.4, E=3102
@ 200 yards, +2.7, E=2628
@ 300 yards, -4.6, E=2213

This cartridge has been around forever....it is older than pounded dirt......How many articles have you read on the 35 Whelen in the past 10 years? I can't think of any. Not only is that a terrific Elk rifle, it will do just fine on Moose and most bear (although I would like a 375 H&H in hand while stalking a huge Coastal. So then.....why should I buy a new whatever if the whatever doesn't measure up to the ever???
I can see the niche in the 284Win, however, I just don't see it in the Federal. There are no numbers to convince me otherwise. We will see when the annual bullet sales data emerges this fall.... anybody want to make a friendly wager who is number one for the Zillioneth year? :) Regards, Rick.

...I'd still wish someone would cross the .284 Winchesther case with the 8 x57mm Mauser....then neck it up to .338 and .350......

Quote from: dannytoro;61462...I'd still wish someone would cross the .284 Winchesther case with the 8 x57mm Mauser....then neck it up to .338 and .350......

 
Hello Danny. There is already a 338-284 wildcat....pretty nice numbers too! Regards, Rick.

The "problem" with the Ackley'd Whelen is that it isn't on a short case. Comparing the Whelen to the .338 Federal without acknowledging that the primary design consideration was to get a .338 bullet on a short case, is simply comparing apples to coconuts. Sure the .35 Whelen is ballistically "better" unless.... to be made on a long case is a "fatal" flaw. In the case of the .338 Federal, the point is the performance on a short case.
 
Paul

Quote from: gitano;61537The "problem" with the Ackley'd Whelen is that it isn't on a short case. Comparing the Whelen to the .338 Federal without acknowledging that the primary design consideration was to get a .338 bullet on a short case, is simply comparing apples to coconuts. Sure the .35 Whelen is ballistically "better" unless.... to be made on a long case is a "fatal" flaw. In the case of the .338 Federal, the point is the performance on a short case.
 
Paul

Agreed, however, the mid length case vs the "long" '06 case means nothing to me. In the deer stand, reloading a 243 and a '06 is a non-differential event. Less than 1/2 inch of bolt throw is a "so what" to me. If a person considers this important, then by all means go for it. I have measured my Sakos and can't remember what the difference was so it must not have been too important in my mind. I would think many calibers are in the same ballpark as the Federal. The 8mm-'06 also comes to mind. Nosler now makes a 200gr partition and accubond and a 180gr BT for the 8mm and there are many 150gr bullets to choose from. Regards, Rick.

But 338 Federal was meant to be a medium distance cartridge suitable for brush busting.
A sort of rimless high powered 30-30 if you like.
Any cartridge is ok in a stand......with the possible exception of 460 Wby......but that wasn't the primary idea behind the 338 Federal.
It was to legitimise yet ANOTHER 308 based cartridge.
Yes, the 338/284 is more muscular and also a short case but lets not ask people to think too much when inventing something using a 308 case requires no thought at all.
For the record, I think short actions cartridges are useful only in actions requiring them.
It was a lot of the motivation behind the development of the 7.62 NATO.
It cycles much better in a semi or fully automatic rifle.
But now the shooting world basically swings on 4 basic cases and 3 are military........7.62 NATO, 30-06 Springfield, 375 H&H and 5.56 NATO, which unlike the others has no serious offspring, just special purpose proprietary ones.
Oh, there are now changes, like the WSMs and RUMs but the bulk of our cartridges remain derivations of these three.
OK, so the 30-30 rates a mention but not in the same way.
Since the 308 Win was established more and more we have been told that short actions are better and a solid amount of recent cartridge development has been poured into proving it.
Am I saying the WSMs and WSSMs are bad? No.
But if the same case research and powder research had gone into standard length rounds we'd reap the benefit from them too, as I suppose we have from the RUMs.
The 375 Ruger is really yet to prove itself
Anyhow, to return to the point, the .338 Fed is designed to sell rifles by matching a popular calibre with a popular belief.
I'll wait until I hear reliable chronograph results before I believe it's alleged capabilities.